1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
30
31
32
33
34
35
36
37
38
39
40
41
42
43
44
45
46
47
48
49
50
51
52
53
54
55
56
57
58
59
60
61
62
63
64
65
66
67
68
69
70
71
72
73
74
75
76
77
78
79
80
81
82
83
84
85
86
87
88
89
90
91
92
93
94
95
96
97
98
99
100
101
102
103
104
105
106
107
108
109
110
111
112
113
114
115
116
117
118
119
120
121
122
123
124
125
126
127
128
129
130
131
132
133
134
135
136
137
138
139
140
141
142
143
144
145
146
147
148
149
150
151
152
153
154
155
156
157
158
159
160
161
162
163
164
165
166
167
168
169
170
171
172
173
174
175
176
177
178
179
180
181
182
183
184
185
186
187
188
189
190
191
192
193
194
195
196
197
198
199
200
201
202
203
204
205
206
207
208
209
210
211
212
213
214
215
216
217
218
219
220
221
222
223
224
225
226
227
228
229
230
231
232
233
234
235
236
237
238
239
240
241
242
243
244
245
246
247
248
249
250
251
252
253
254
255
256
257
258
259
260
261
262
263
264
265
266
267
268
269
270
271
272
273
274
275
276
277
278
279
280
281
282
283
284
285
286
287
288
289
290
|
Delivery-date: Wed, 21 Aug 2024 07:14:55 -0700
Received: from mail-qv1-f62.google.com ([209.85.219.62])
by mail.fairlystable.org with esmtps (TLS1.3) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256
(Exim 4.94.2)
(envelope-from <bitcoindev+bncBAABBVPMS63AMGQEVOHJ46Q@googlegroups.com>)
id 1sgm6w-00074Z-Kt
for bitcoindev@gnusha.org; Wed, 21 Aug 2024 07:14:55 -0700
Received: by mail-qv1-f62.google.com with SMTP id 6a1803df08f44-6bf9926ba79sf47404276d6.3
for <bitcoindev@gnusha.org>; Wed, 21 Aug 2024 07:14:54 -0700 (PDT)
ARC-Seal: i=2; a=rsa-sha256; t=1724249688; cv=pass;
d=google.com; s=arc-20160816;
b=DU2wLe/aZfxe9l6mSuCU8OeFJfXTeJpY5365GcRKD4fG/SI74QYXV6GnLR9Ps9T1xZ
6NrGDl+mInAWnNVaadbwOA64RKCXyYTA6v3vdcFTDOcFLlS5sZaj1yuITFHbo2kvfOmx
OMvo6+BYLcDzhb32RshNaCQ2xxrt0DdrLcJ5VIXdwuWdoP3VHF7MnNRf+pMiR5Wvn37V
VKJIlO/NA49QWleHdbj6xY8GNzf4/Um/jdC79zdR/D4OA1PuwOut3xqFULlfvP0qxjOl
bqgWYmJD+IO9g5mWIn3JkoAvvyzAY+EJRo4eoYb7R3UrSCsSFsouqEIvUWZ7LjVY00Ua
F8BQ==
ARC-Message-Signature: i=2; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=arc-20160816;
h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post
:list-id:mailing-list:precedence:content-transfer-encoding
:in-reply-to:from:content-language:references:to:subject:user-agent
:mime-version:date:message-id:sender:dkim-signature;
bh=KpdCXRqEP7U53MtdKhgtj6Lk/0MuoGvlFrPuFlE6eKE=;
fh=sbTdjRvx1TPEVaqwZEbyUJUdk4A8oaOTMcdKNuQMbj0=;
b=N9EUJuc3r8aE2GCu7LsY4RMTE3vgMmKc8ghYYmh5nhPmpDPM1dOhld/+3/GUUsHHYg
zNSjs2WMxu8dM0SMvKJ3EekeWTm2tmODmr8qxPpGubKNBy7YOwhlpzSZQseqi2vjaPQJ
JKavs8s6XrjCfSr4ud6IHUJRRyYsAFNExBJ1FTG7PP3GElv7QllTOISJrvyTa+ueGHzR
hsOMdcAjYrYAWPvg+7hichfqMY6CIhn8mgme1nycVQxgVWnQBZVRo+cDlZfkkKUUAIhU
B78RJROYm4iBSG20dUKGDZqFlNDdlujVOcBUkh3pWYaUjGmmel8/Mb6COUSVVDRh5hVy
NTXg==;
darn=gnusha.org
ARC-Authentication-Results: i=2; gmr-mx.google.com;
dkim=pass header.i=@murch.one header.s=uberspace header.b=FDxe9Z5v;
spf=pass (google.com: domain of murch@murch.one designates 185.26.156.235 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=murch@murch.one
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
d=googlegroups.com; s=20230601; t=1724249688; x=1724854488; darn=gnusha.org;
h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post
:list-id:mailing-list:precedence:x-original-authentication-results
:x-original-sender:content-transfer-encoding:in-reply-to:from
:content-language:references:to:subject:user-agent:mime-version:date
:message-id:sender:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to;
bh=KpdCXRqEP7U53MtdKhgtj6Lk/0MuoGvlFrPuFlE6eKE=;
b=mm+o8x+03v/a+gBPslA9ymYm5Opgfw1OeUFiYnizkUtF+yr5A3Gs9pKPgLYbC3vddF
Uv9/e7Lz6YRqHU0JL+0iPWh8iF9iyV5/HBLPeXT0w94C4yG98fcFvSqsN2iob3eg/dn2
SiCsoth6QNr9mpZsXCU3tTB3zIqLvKaQJVjG7tTUlYpguCMelwtT1kuesEzEfCJYRi3D
bhdLG8MpZ1acH8Q7p5ko9DOzQwNUAlNOXQeLBG5aybe+QIasD3y9pNb/tJPbb5vnqn2I
qkH8DFrQmxn3GOOGkq9FPuZMgvC8iXegdB7FHLQE5UwPjXwMP7y+FXgOLIihc4ccElWv
KHOg==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1724249688; x=1724854488;
h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post
:list-id:mailing-list:precedence:x-original-authentication-results
:x-original-sender:content-transfer-encoding:in-reply-to:from
:content-language:references:to:subject:user-agent:mime-version:date
:message-id:x-beenthere:x-gm-message-state:sender:from:to:cc:subject
:date:message-id:reply-to;
bh=KpdCXRqEP7U53MtdKhgtj6Lk/0MuoGvlFrPuFlE6eKE=;
b=JcjnwrtODsAQMP/hg0toX0NbcsDaOJEyrqp2q4OLQl5Ije8QbUsr4K7OeqGGPfK9ma
1oN3BY2+4pZUC3tvhCf/kpqXEKNAh8kagb0fDrfOVN3y2lAGRUlo/v7J5d4+qhRdaTmX
0sj6jWAjrlDPyYkjWm4VzUfgs0DHetnEajpme3G1yVQpJZ0Z3ifFkXn8AoXHoDTLeC7Q
zeQ7UghqiXl+EgTdI4T3NjCCDlVH82tPuAVuyUn0YZbdTAKo1DM2a3xrEJsaKZwlgbTd
3Rr8IJT/7ZcZv7H64nz7EkA4yEXNpB/bsY1B1XhyAbV7WFVTgbeZa6JodV2l3o1dNfQA
zbig==
Sender: bitcoindev@googlegroups.com
X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=2; AJvYcCVUX/+WwmUq3tniywYBXvV8ynAEcn8XKLL+g57eIfvEBaf4P9x5PKVCysfP3JpmJY+Js5wjioxxCuYU@gnusha.org
X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YxBiz3bGugdr5iRzZDc9OTekNSP//Ote8mvRm+ZcvJSKjuJbBiT
nEULVwYDSmkjiV+4vsYoRgWi+kvhbh4l3vEu31YphjDJmI+fkhle
X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IGHqximan0blRj52UPjuSYwYVm3W2j+IfcO1602Q9pVDzJBh+k+Fc7PM1GdI9GuaV/MPFcDbg==
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6214:3b8a:b0:6bb:9b8d:b599 with SMTP id 6a1803df08f44-6c155de8072mr24032806d6.46.1724249687464;
Wed, 21 Aug 2024 07:14:47 -0700 (PDT)
X-BeenThere: bitcoindev@googlegroups.com
Received: by 2002:a05:6214:20c4:b0:6ad:782a:b4c9 with SMTP id
6a1803df08f44-6c15ac787f2ls12735916d6.1.-pod-prod-01-us; Wed, 21 Aug 2024
07:14:45 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6214:20e2:b0:6bf:808b:a2a2 with SMTP id 6a1803df08f44-6c155d88863mr1595946d6.6.1724249685279;
Wed, 21 Aug 2024 07:14:45 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 2002:a05:620a:389d:b0:79c:bd3:58c5 with SMTP id af79cd13be357-7a66b8fd288ms85a;
Tue, 20 Aug 2024 11:05:26 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: by 2002:a05:600c:46ce:b0:426:593c:935d with SMTP id 5b1f17b1804b1-42abd21f59fmr1138155e9.5.1724177124413;
Tue, 20 Aug 2024 11:05:24 -0700 (PDT)
ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; t=1724177124; cv=none;
d=google.com; s=arc-20240605;
b=QIoe/HnmOkwmneP/QYMb1pqtsLD1Odq5h+SJp3maMXJyVnme3KIrZC9zwHH6KPjGPZ
mthFOnnvUAXlsQVslYwodHotKtgVCzxdqE6DXJgYdI8JTeAxbdkPQA/N+0aGdt9V3jun
PbPk1X6ZbgUsDO75p6p2mwfcBtkUBuCrI78QfYe/EKmDmb5xbOEsl66x4kctsHu9iI4s
s31YyLBAh3d/D54WABBUc1C30sx98IxIHK0V1tX25VEffwkbo3JDq5kjLCfnjeHpbdAb
+RbjzhiBn1v6fc6zT1thzStoAkYVxugmAZVA3Zzrq9Qpanpbg/8+vJ9/mP6qQ1BMBTgL
qTgw==
ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=arc-20240605;
h=dkim-signature:content-transfer-encoding:in-reply-to:from
:content-language:references:to:subject:user-agent:mime-version:date
:message-id;
bh=m1lgy6jXcYjMM4mOAzcQNU6EN+tKBBto47BN/6RyUEw=;
fh=VcGcg+Zjs9gw1uDcHbxsAILhBAcecnbJzZRdxgKVDIc=;
b=eCCrkWNEC5vVnB1SfuSbLNz2otfNjmMah03/KrLcQwFP2awiicEz+e5Uj9Fs1utsJP
jDtqXeeZ7oiacQ6fA7pQp3Qv05Z6viax9jZaclIAg/ch8gYdS2PXLO8RKIir4N4JxGuk
/uTBkX/wY7Dzzd8HqApXs+6AIGVUjijGDVZ7LxKWhAPZCPFs/8dcTa7hGX0vmu+hdDN6
x9WiE39g18b2C2sAqxMWUU5ofJWG7F2tN+xCuPF5tyU8k6N7TXB2F18W0PNs+85a/no+
9sbQ+cEKbt4hVvY57Kn2iwzP5zvpPnxYk7dmRdFmX0bFCUVxfWhBNZf0pH9S1U28GnHW
uo7w==;
dara=google.com
ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; gmr-mx.google.com;
dkim=pass header.i=@murch.one header.s=uberspace header.b=FDxe9Z5v;
spf=pass (google.com: domain of murch@murch.one designates 185.26.156.235 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=murch@murch.one
Received: from farbauti.uberspace.de (farbauti.uberspace.de. [185.26.156.235])
by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 5b1f17b1804b1-42ab87f8154si1108075e9.1.2024.08.20.11.05.24
for <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>
(version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128);
Tue, 20 Aug 2024 11:05:24 -0700 (PDT)
Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of murch@murch.one designates 185.26.156.235 as permitted sender) client-ip=185.26.156.235;
Received: (qmail 14352 invoked by uid 989); 20 Aug 2024 18:05:24 -0000
Received: from unknown (HELO unkown) (::1)
by farbauti.uberspace.de (Haraka/3.0.1) with ESMTPSA; Tue, 20 Aug 2024 20:05:23 +0200
Message-ID: <4de6a775-f9ed-44f0-bc93-7e74d64e36ad@murch.one>
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2024 14:05:22 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird
Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] BIP 8.5: Flag day activation based on nlocktime signaling
To: bitcoindev@googlegroups.com
References: <29d850d1-912a-4b15-ba41-cc36d05e7074n@googlegroups.com>
Content-Language: en-US
From: Murch <murch@murch.one>
In-Reply-To: <29d850d1-912a-4b15-ba41-cc36d05e7074n@googlegroups.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-Rspamd-Bar: ---
X-Rspamd-Report: BAYES_HAM(-3) XM_UA_NO_VERSION(0.01) MIME_GOOD(-0.1)
X-Rspamd-Score: -3.09
X-Original-Sender: murch@murch.one
X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass
header.i=@murch.one header.s=uberspace header.b=FDxe9Z5v; spf=pass
(google.com: domain of murch@murch.one designates 185.26.156.235 as permitted
sender) smtp.mailfrom=murch@murch.one
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com
List-ID: <bitcoindev.googlegroups.com>
X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512
List-Post: <https://groups.google.com/group/bitcoindev/post>, <mailto:bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>
List-Help: <https://groups.google.com/support/>, <mailto:bitcoindev+help@googlegroups.com>
List-Archive: <https://groups.google.com/group/bitcoindev
List-Subscribe: <https://groups.google.com/group/bitcoindev/subscribe>, <mailto:bitcoindev+subscribe@googlegroups.com>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:googlegroups-manage+786775582512+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com>,
<https://groups.google.com/group/bitcoindev/subscribe>
X-Spam-Score: -0.8 (/)
Hello floppy and list,
On 8/19/24 01:08, /dev /fd0 wrote:
> Hi Bitcoin Developers,
>
> I am proposing an alternative way to activate soft forks. Please let
> me know if you see any issues with this method.
While your proposal may address some of the criticisms leveled at BIP=E2=80=
=AF8=20
and BIP=E2=80=AF9, it introduces new problems.
1. I appreciate that the signaling mechanism you propose would introduce=20
a cost to signaling. Unfortunately, this cost is unevenly distributed:=20
if you were going to make a transaction anyway, it=E2=80=99s free, but othe=
rwise=20
you would have to pay to get your signal out there. It may also lead to=20
a distortion of usage. Someone that may have sent a batched payments=20
transaction might consider splitting it into multiple separate=20
transactions instead to increase their signaling for a reduced cost=20
compared to making transactions just for signaling, but increased=20
blockspace demand compared to their batched payments transaction.
2. The `nLockTime` field is not unused. Transactions that have to set it=20
to make use of other protocol functions are inherently prevented from=20
signaling. Either way, it would be better to use the field for anti-fee=20
sniping, which also is not compatible with your signaling mechanism.
3. Most wallet software does not support setting the locktime manually,=20
so some users that might want to signal support cannot without switching=20
software.
4. This introduces a new fingerprint for transactions pertaining to=20
software that supports setting locktime manually.
5. A transaction can only set a single nLockTime value, so if there are=20
multiple proposals that are up for debate, a transaction can only signal=20
support for one. This could side-stepped by using nLockTime as a bit=20
array where each position signals support for one proposal, much like BIP=
=E2=80=AF9.
6. As already surfaced in your conversation with Fabian, it is up for=20
debate how the signaling data later would be interpreted. You mention=20
that spam could later be excluded, and blocks that include at least one=20
transaction that signals would be some sort of signal, but it=E2=80=99s unc=
lear=20
why one out of thousands of transactions should be relevant whatsoever.=20
Unless a very large portion of transactions signals support, I=E2=80=99m no=
t=20
sure what we would learn from this signal at all.
7. Your proposal does not allow distinguishing between apathy and=20
opposition: not signaling could mean either.
8. You suggest that miners could choose to exclude signaling=20
transactions if they are not ready, but it is much simpler for miners to=20
do nothing, so the inclusion of signaling transactions cannot be=20
interpreted as an endorsement.
Overall, this approach does not seem expedient to me, but should you=20
choose to maturate this proposal, I would suggest the following areas of=20
improvement:
- The proposal should address the questions brought up above and by=20
other responses
- The motivation should describe in more detail the existing issues that=20
are being addressed, and how this proposal mitigates them
- A rationale section should explain design choices, and put the=20
proposal into the context of alternate designs and related work
- A backwards compatibility section should address how implementers=20
should think about this proposal in the context of other uses of=20
nLockTime such as anti-fee sniping
- The specification should describe the syntax and semantics in=20
sufficient detail for other developers to implement the proposal
Cheers,
Murch
>=20
> BIP: XXX
> Layer: Consensus (soft fork)
> Title: nLockTime signaling and flag day activation
> Author: /dev/fd0 <alicexbt@protonmail.com>
> Status: Draft
> Type: Standards Track
> Created: 2024-08-19
> License: Public Domain
>=20
> ## Abstract
>=20
> This document describes a process to activate soft forks using flag day
> after `nLockTime` signaling and discussion.
>=20
> ## Motivation
>=20
> BIP 8 and BIP 9 are controversial. This BIP is an alternative which
> addresses the problems with other activation methods.
>=20
> ## Specification
>=20
> - Assign numbers to different soft fork proposals or use their BIP number=
s
> - Users can broadcast their transactions with one of these numbers used a=
s
> `nLockTime` to show support
> - Miners inlcuding a transaction in block would signal readiness for a so=
ft
> fork
> - Community can analyze these transactions after 3 months and prepare for=
a
> flag day activation of soft fork
>=20
> Example:
> Use 119 to signal support for OP_CHECKTEMPLATEVERIFY in `nLockTime`
>=20
> ## Reference implementation
>=20
> Activation:
> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/ab91bf39b7c11e9c86bb2043c24f0f3=
77f1cf514.diff
>=20
> Exclusion in relay or mining:
> https://github.com/bitcoinknots/bitcoin/commit/18cd7b0ef6eaeacd06678c6d19=
2b6cacc9d7eee5.diff
>=20
> ---
>=20
> If a transaction does not get included in block for a long time, users ca=
n
> replace it with another transaction spending same inputs and use a
> different `nLockTime`.
>=20
> /dev/fd0
> floppy disk guy
>=20
--=20
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/=
bitcoindev/4de6a775-f9ed-44f0-bc93-7e74d64e36ad%40murch.one.
|
