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[185.26.156.235]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 5b1f17b1804b1-42ab87f8154si1108075e9.1.2024.08.20.11.05.24 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 20 Aug 2024 11:05:24 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of murch@murch.one designates 185.26.156.235 as permitted sender) client-ip=185.26.156.235; Received: (qmail 14352 invoked by uid 989); 20 Aug 2024 18:05:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO unkown) (::1) by farbauti.uberspace.de (Haraka/3.0.1) with ESMTPSA; Tue, 20 Aug 2024 20:05:23 +0200 Message-ID: <4de6a775-f9ed-44f0-bc93-7e74d64e36ad@murch.one> Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2024 14:05:22 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] BIP 8.5: Flag day activation based on nlocktime signaling To: bitcoindev@googlegroups.com References: <29d850d1-912a-4b15-ba41-cc36d05e7074n@googlegroups.com> Content-Language: en-US From: Murch In-Reply-To: <29d850d1-912a-4b15-ba41-cc36d05e7074n@googlegroups.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Rspamd-Bar: --- X-Rspamd-Report: BAYES_HAM(-3) XM_UA_NO_VERSION(0.01) MIME_GOOD(-0.1) X-Rspamd-Score: -3.09 X-Original-Sender: murch@murch.one X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@murch.one header.s=uberspace header.b=FDxe9Z5v; spf=pass (google.com: domain of murch@murch.one designates 185.26.156.235 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=murch@murch.one Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -0.8 (/) Hello floppy and list, On 8/19/24 01:08, /dev /fd0 wrote: > Hi Bitcoin Developers, > > I am proposing an alternative way to activate soft forks. Please let > me know if you see any issues with this method. While your proposal may address some of the criticisms leveled at BIP=E2=80= =AF8=20 and BIP=E2=80=AF9, it introduces new problems. 1. I appreciate that the signaling mechanism you propose would introduce=20 a cost to signaling. Unfortunately, this cost is unevenly distributed:=20 if you were going to make a transaction anyway, it=E2=80=99s free, but othe= rwise=20 you would have to pay to get your signal out there. It may also lead to=20 a distortion of usage. Someone that may have sent a batched payments=20 transaction might consider splitting it into multiple separate=20 transactions instead to increase their signaling for a reduced cost=20 compared to making transactions just for signaling, but increased=20 blockspace demand compared to their batched payments transaction. 2. The `nLockTime` field is not unused. Transactions that have to set it=20 to make use of other protocol functions are inherently prevented from=20 signaling. Either way, it would be better to use the field for anti-fee=20 sniping, which also is not compatible with your signaling mechanism. 3. Most wallet software does not support setting the locktime manually,=20 so some users that might want to signal support cannot without switching=20 software. 4. This introduces a new fingerprint for transactions pertaining to=20 software that supports setting locktime manually. 5. A transaction can only set a single nLockTime value, so if there are=20 multiple proposals that are up for debate, a transaction can only signal=20 support for one. This could side-stepped by using nLockTime as a bit=20 array where each position signals support for one proposal, much like BIP= =E2=80=AF9. 6. As already surfaced in your conversation with Fabian, it is up for=20 debate how the signaling data later would be interpreted. You mention=20 that spam could later be excluded, and blocks that include at least one=20 transaction that signals would be some sort of signal, but it=E2=80=99s unc= lear=20 why one out of thousands of transactions should be relevant whatsoever.=20 Unless a very large portion of transactions signals support, I=E2=80=99m no= t=20 sure what we would learn from this signal at all. 7. Your proposal does not allow distinguishing between apathy and=20 opposition: not signaling could mean either. 8. You suggest that miners could choose to exclude signaling=20 transactions if they are not ready, but it is much simpler for miners to=20 do nothing, so the inclusion of signaling transactions cannot be=20 interpreted as an endorsement. Overall, this approach does not seem expedient to me, but should you=20 choose to maturate this proposal, I would suggest the following areas of=20 improvement: - The proposal should address the questions brought up above and by=20 other responses - The motivation should describe in more detail the existing issues that=20 are being addressed, and how this proposal mitigates them - A rationale section should explain design choices, and put the=20 proposal into the context of alternate designs and related work - A backwards compatibility section should address how implementers=20 should think about this proposal in the context of other uses of=20 nLockTime such as anti-fee sniping - The specification should describe the syntax and semantics in=20 sufficient detail for other developers to implement the proposal Cheers, Murch >=20 > BIP: XXX > Layer: Consensus (soft fork) > Title: nLockTime signaling and flag day activation > Author: /dev/fd0 > Status: Draft > Type: Standards Track > Created: 2024-08-19 > License: Public Domain >=20 > ## Abstract >=20 > This document describes a process to activate soft forks using flag day > after `nLockTime` signaling and discussion. >=20 > ## Motivation >=20 > BIP 8 and BIP 9 are controversial. This BIP is an alternative which > addresses the problems with other activation methods. >=20 > ## Specification >=20 > - Assign numbers to different soft fork proposals or use their BIP number= s > - Users can broadcast their transactions with one of these numbers used a= s > `nLockTime` to show support > - Miners inlcuding a transaction in block would signal readiness for a so= ft > fork > - Community can analyze these transactions after 3 months and prepare for= a > flag day activation of soft fork >=20 > Example: > Use 119 to signal support for OP_CHECKTEMPLATEVERIFY in `nLockTime` >=20 > ## Reference implementation >=20 > Activation: > https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/ab91bf39b7c11e9c86bb2043c24f0f3= 77f1cf514.diff >=20 > Exclusion in relay or mining: > https://github.com/bitcoinknots/bitcoin/commit/18cd7b0ef6eaeacd06678c6d19= 2b6cacc9d7eee5.diff >=20 > --- >=20 > If a transaction does not get included in block for a long time, users ca= n > replace it with another transaction spending same inputs and use a > different `nLockTime`. >=20 > /dev/fd0 > floppy disk guy >=20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/= bitcoindev/4de6a775-f9ed-44f0-bc93-7e74d64e36ad%40murch.one.