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Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Full node "tip" function
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- Full nodes already perform many valuable services, and simply allowing
people to pay for better service is something operators can do now - even
without it being baked into bitcoind. Paying for access to a higher-speed
relay network, for example, is something that many operators would do.
- Baking in the ability to add service fees could make more people *want*
to run more high quality, highly available full nodes... which is really
one of the most important things developers can be doing.
On Thu, May 4, 2017 at 9:37 AM, Aymeric Vitte via bitcoin-dev <
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
> Strange idea, incentiving people to run full nodes should certainly not
> depend on miners, should certainly not involve another wasteful pow and
> should certainly not encourage any collusion between participants like
> miners are doing (ie full nodes pools for example or miners creating full
> nodes pools)
>
> Le 04/05/2017 =C3=A0 12:38, Tomas via bitcoin-dev a =C3=A9crit :
>
> The ones that *could* pay non-mining full nodes are miners/pools, by
> outsourcing transaction selection using a different PoW. By doing so the=
y
> could buy proof-of-uncensored-selection and proof-of-goodwill for a small
> fee.
>
> We would allow full nodes to generate and broadcast a template block whic=
h:
>
> * Does not contain a valid header yet
> * Contains the transaction selection
> * Contains a coinbase output with a predetermined part of the block rewar=
d
> (say 0.5%) to themselves
> * Contains a nonce for PoW of a predetermined currently ASIC resistant
> hash function behind a OP_RETURN.
>
> The template with the highest PoW since the last block would be leading. =
A
> miner/pool can then choose to use this instead of their own, adding the
> rest of the reward and the SHA nonce themselves. That way they would set =
up
> a competition among full nodes.
>
> This would of course be voluntary but provable, so maybe in a pool's
> interest to do this via naming and shaming.
>
> Tomas
> bitcrust
>
> On Wed, May 3, 2017, at 23:43, Ben Thompson via bitcoin-dev wrote:
>
> I feel like this would be pointless as the vast majority of users would
> likely download the blockchain from a node that was not enforcing a tip
> requirement as it would seem like unnecessary cost as in protocols such a=
s
> BitTorrent there is no such tips in sharing files and the blockchain
> distribution is in eccense the same thing. However perhaps I am
> underestimating the generosity of node operators but I feel that adding a
> cost to the blockchain (assuming that all users add a tip requirement)
> would lead to centralisation.
>
> On Wed, 3 May 2017, 22:21 Erik Aronesty via bitcoin-dev, <
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>
> IDEA:
> - Full nodes advertise a bitcoin address. Users that need to download
> the block chain from that node can be encouraged to send a tip to the pee=
rs
> that served them (by % served). Recommended tip of 10mbit should be fin=
e.
>
> - A full nodes can *require* a tip to download the blockchain. If they
> do, users that don't specify a tip cannot use them.
>
> CONS:
>
> For some people, this may represent a barrier to hosting their own full
> node. After all, if you have to pay $15 just to get a copy of the
> blockchain, that just adds to the already expensive prospect of hosting a
> full node.
> PROS:
>
> As long as you manage to stay online, you should get your money back and
> more. This is the an incentive for quality, long term hosting.
> In the long term, this should cause stable nodes to stick around longer.
> It also discourages "installation spam" attacks on the network.
> Fees for other node operations can be considered if this is successful.
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing listbitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.orghttps://list=
s.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>
>
> --
> Zcash wallets made simple: https://github.com/Ayms/zcash-wallets
> Bitcoin wallets made simple: https://github.com/Ayms/bitcoin-wallets
> Get the torrent dynamic blocklist: http://peersm.com/getblocklist
> Check the 10 M passwords list: http://peersm.com/findmyass
> Anti-spies and private torrents, dynamic blocklist: http://torrent-live.o=
rg
> Peersm : http://www.peersm.com
> torrent-live: https://github.com/Ayms/torrent-live
> node-Tor : https://www.github.com/Ayms/node-Tor
> GitHub : https://www.github.com/Ayms
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>
>
--001a11c10bc4856e0a054eb3041e
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<div dir=3D"ltr">=C2=A0- Full nodes already perform many valuable services,=
and simply allowing people to pay for better service is something operator=
s can do now - even without it being baked into bitcoind.=C2=A0=C2=A0 Payin=
g for access to a higher-speed relay network, for example, is something tha=
t many operators would do.<br><div><br>- Baking in the ability to add servi=
ce fees could make more people *want* to run more high quality, highly avai=
lable full nodes... which is really one of the most important things develo=
pers can be doing.<br><br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div c=
lass=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, May 4, 2017 at 9:37 AM, Aymeric Vitte via bitc=
oin-dev <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoun=
dation.org" target=3D"_blank">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>>=
</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .=
8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
=20
=20
=20
<div bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" text=3D"#000000">
<p>Strange idea, incentiving people to run full nodes should
certainly not depend on miners, should certainly not involve
another wasteful pow and should certainly not encourage any
collusion between participants like miners are doing (ie full
nodes pools for example or miners creating full nodes pools)<br>
</p><div><div class=3D"h5">
<br>
<div class=3D"m_-7268807749370062531moz-cite-prefix">Le 04/05/2017 =C3=
=A0 12:38, Tomas via
bitcoin-dev a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:<br>
</div>
</div></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div class=3D"h5">
=20
<div>The ones that *could* pay non-mining full nodes are
miners/pools, by outsourcing transaction selection using a
different PoW.=C2=A0 By doing so they could buy
proof-of-uncensored-selection and proof-of-goodwill for a small
fee.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>We would allow full nodes to generate and broadcast a
template block which:<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>* Does not contain a valid header yet<br>
</div>
<div>* Contains the transaction selection<br>
</div>
<div>* Contains a coinbase output with a predetermined part of the
block reward (say 0.5%) to themselves<br>
</div>
<div>* Contains a nonce for PoW of a predetermined currently ASIC
resistant hash function behind a OP_RETURN.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The template with the highest PoW since the last block would
be leading. A miner/pool can then choose to use this instead of
their own, adding the rest of the reward and the SHA nonce
themselves. That way they would set up a competition among full
nodes.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>This would of course be voluntary but provable, so maybe=C2=A0in=
a
pool's interest to do this via naming and shaming.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Tomas<br>
</div>
<div>bitcrust<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>On Wed, May 3, 2017, at 23:43, Ben Thompson via bitcoin-dev
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div dir=3D"ltr">I feel like this would be pointless as the vast
majority of users would likely download the blockchain from a
node that was not enforcing a tip requirement as it would seem
like unnecessary cost as in protocols such as BitTorrent there
is no such tips in sharing files and the blockchain
distribution is in eccense the same thing. However perhaps I
am underestimating the generosity of node operators but I feel
that adding a cost to the blockchain (assuming that all users
add a tip requirement) would lead to centralisation.<br>
</div>
<div><span></span><br>
</div>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">On Wed, 3 May 2017, 22:21 Erik Aronesty via
bitcoin-dev, <<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfound=
ation.org" target=3D"_blank">bitcoin-dev@lists.<wbr>linuxfoundation.org</a>=
>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-botto=
m:0px;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;borde=
r-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>IDEA:<br>
</div>
</div>
<div>- Full nodes advertise a bitcoin address.=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 Users
that need to download the block chain from that node
can be encouraged to send a tip to the peers that
served them (by % served).=C2=A0=C2=A0 Recommended tip =
of
10mbit should be fine.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<div>- A full nodes can *require* a tip to download the
blockchain.=C2=A0 If they do, users that don't specif=
y a
tip cannot use them.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>CONS:<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>For some people, this may represent a barrier to
hosting their own full node.=C2=A0=C2=A0 After all, if yo=
u have
to pay $15 just to get a copy of the blockchain, that
just adds to the already expensive prospect of hosting
a full node.=C2=A0=C2=A0 <br>
</div>
</div>
<div>PROS: <br>
</div>
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>As long as you manage to stay online, you should
get your money back and more.=C2=A0=C2=A0 This is the an
incentive for quality, long term hosting.<br>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>In the long term, this should cause stable nodes to
stick around longer.=C2=A0=C2=A0 It also discourages
"installation spam" attacks on the network.<br>
</div>
</div>
<div>Fees for other node operations can be considered if
this is successful.<br>
</div>
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset class=3D"m_-7268807749370062531mimeAttachmentHeader"></fiel=
dset>
<br>
</div></div><span class=3D""><pre>______________________________<wbr>=
_________________
bitcoin-dev mailing list
<a class=3D"m_-7268807749370062531moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href=3D"mailto:=
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank">bitcoin-dev@lists.=
<wbr>linuxfoundation.org</a>
<a class=3D"m_-7268807749370062531moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"https://li=
sts.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev" target=3D"_blank">htt=
ps://lists.linuxfoundation.<wbr>org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-<wbr>dev</a>
</pre>
</span></blockquote><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888">
<br>
<pre class=3D"m_-7268807749370062531moz-signature" cols=3D"72">--=20
Zcash wallets made simple: <a class=3D"m_-7268807749370062531moz-txt-link-f=
reetext" href=3D"https://github.com/Ayms/zcash-wallets" target=3D"_blank">h=
ttps://github.com/Ayms/zcash-<wbr>wallets</a>
Bitcoin wallets made simple: <a class=3D"m_-7268807749370062531moz-txt-link=
-freetext" href=3D"https://github.com/Ayms/bitcoin-wallets" target=3D"_blan=
k">https://github.com/Ayms/<wbr>bitcoin-wallets</a>
Get the torrent dynamic blocklist: <a class=3D"m_-7268807749370062531moz-tx=
t-link-freetext" href=3D"http://peersm.com/getblocklist" target=3D"_blank">=
http://peersm.com/getblocklist</a>
Check the 10 M passwords list: <a class=3D"m_-7268807749370062531moz-txt-li=
nk-freetext" href=3D"http://peersm.com/findmyass" target=3D"_blank">http://=
peersm.com/findmyass</a>
Anti-spies and private torrents, dynamic blocklist: <a class=3D"m_-72688077=
49370062531moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"http://torrent-live.org" target=
=3D"_blank">http://torrent-live.org</a>
Peersm : <a class=3D"m_-7268807749370062531moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"h=
ttp://www.peersm.com" target=3D"_blank">http://www.peersm.com</a>
torrent-live: <a class=3D"m_-7268807749370062531moz-txt-link-freetext" href=
=3D"https://github.com/Ayms/torrent-live" target=3D"_blank">https://github.=
com/Ayms/<wbr>torrent-live</a>
node-Tor : <a class=3D"m_-7268807749370062531moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D=
"https://www.github.com/Ayms/node-Tor" target=3D"_blank">https://www.github=
.com/Ayms/<wbr>node-Tor</a>
GitHub : <a class=3D"m_-7268807749370062531moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"h=
ttps://www.github.com/Ayms" target=3D"_blank">https://www.github.com/Ayms</=
a></pre>
</font></span></div>
<br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
bitcoin-dev mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org">bitcoin-dev@lists.=
<wbr>linuxfoundation.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev" =
rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.linuxfoundation.<wbr>org=
/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-<wbr>dev</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div>
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