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Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2025 17:56:07 +0000
To: Hunter Beast <hunter@surmount.systems>
From: Pieter Wuille <bitcoin-dev@wuille.net>
Cc: Bitcoin Development Mailing List <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] Proposal for Quantum-Resistant Address Migration
 Protocol (QRAMP) BIP
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On Wednesday, February 19th, 2025 at 11:06 AM, Hunter Beast <hunter@surmoun=
t.systems> wrote:

> I don't see why old coins should be confiscated. The better option is to =
let those with quantum computers free up old coins. While this might have a=
n inflationary impact on bitcoin's price, to use a turn of phrase, the infl=
ation is transitory. Those with low time preference should support returnin=
g lost coins to circulation.

Of course they have to be confiscated. If and when (and that's a big if) th=
e existence of a cryptography-breaking QC becomes a credible threat, the Bi=
tcoin ecosystem has no other option than softforking(*) out the ability to =
spend from signature schemes (including ECDSA and BIP340) that are vulnerab=
le to QCs. The alternative is that millions of BTC become vulnerable to the=
ft; I cannot see how the currency can maintain any value at all in such a s=
etting. And this affects everyone; even those which diligently moved their =
coins to PQC-protected schemes.

> Also, I don't see the urgency, considering the majority of coins are in e=
ither P2PKH, P2WPKH, P2SH, and P2WSH addresses. If PQC signatures aren't ad=
ded, such as with BIP-360, there will be some concern around long exposure =
attacks on P2TR coins.

There were literally millions of BTC locked in outputs whose public keys ar=
e already known to the public, long before P2TR. Either because of they're =
in P2PK outputs, because they're in hashed addresses which have been reused=
 and already using for spending, or because they're been spent in forked ch=
ains. There are likely substantially more BTC in outputs whose public keys =
are known to multiple parties (multisig, lightning channels, escrow service=
s, ...) but not to the entire world.

I certainly agree there is no urgency right now, but if (and only if) crypt=
ography-breaking QCs become a reality, the ecosystem has no choice but disa=
bling(*) the spending of coins through schemes that become broken, and need=
s to have done so before such a machine exists.

(*) There may exist ways of retaining the ability to spend coins in vulnera=
ble schemes, if they involve a PQC proof of knowledge of some additional se=
cret, e.g. the xprv the key was derived with. It's a significant complicati=
on, not and applicable to everything, but might be an option.

--
Pieter

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<div class=3D"protonmail_signature_block protonmail_signature_block-empty" =
style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;">
    <div class=3D"protonmail_signature_block-user protonmail_signature_bloc=
k-empty">
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            <div class=3D"protonmail_signature_block-proton protonmail_sign=
ature_block-empty">
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</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;"><br></div><=
div class=3D"protonmail_quote">
        On Wednesday, February 19th, 2025 at 11:06 AM, Hunter Beast &lt;hun=
ter@surmount.systems&gt; wrote:<br>
        <blockquote class=3D"protonmail_quote" type=3D"cite"><div>
            I don't see why old coins should be confiscated. The better opt=
ion is to let those with quantum computers free up old coins. While this mi=
ght have an inflationary impact on bitcoin's price, to use a turn of phrase=
, the inflation is transitory. Those with low time preference should suppor=
t returning lost coins to circulation.</div></blockquote><div style=3D"font=
-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); backgroun=
d-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family: Arial, s=
ans-serif; font-size: 14px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: rgb(255,=
 255, 255);">Of course they have to be confiscated. If and when (and that's=
 a big if) the existence of a cryptography-breaking QC becomes a credible t=
hreat, the Bitcoin ecosystem has no other option than softforking(*) out th=
e ability to spend from signature schemes (including ECDSA and BIP340) that=
 are vulnerable to QCs. The alternative is that millions of BTC become vuln=
erable to theft; I cannot see how the currency can maintain any value at al=
l in such a setting. And this affects everyone; even those which diligently=
 moved their coins to PQC-protected schemes.</div><div style=3D"font-family=
: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color=
: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-ser=
if; font-size: 14px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 2=
55);"><br></div><blockquote class=3D"protonmail_quote" type=3D"cite"><div>A=
lso, I don't see the urgency, considering the majority of coins are in eith=
er P2PKH, P2WPKH, P2SH, and P2WSH addresses. If PQC signatures aren't added=
, such as with BIP-360, there will be some concern around long exposure att=
acks on P2TR coins.</div></blockquote><div style=3D"font-family: Arial, san=
s-serif; font-size: 14px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: rgb(255, 2=
55, 255);"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-siz=
e: 14px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">There =
were literally millions of BTC locked in outputs whose public keys are alre=
ady known to the public, long before P2TR. Either because of they're in P2P=
K outputs, because they're in hashed addresses which have been reused and a=
lready using for spending, or because they're been spent in forked chains. =
There are likely substantially more BTC in outputs whose public keys are kn=
own to multiple parties (multisig, lightning channels, escrow services, ...=
) but not to the entire world.</div><div style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-=
serif; font-size: 14px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: rgb(255, 255=
, 255);"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size:=
 14px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">I certai=
nly agree there is no urgency right now, but if (and only if) cryptography-=
breaking QCs become a reality, the ecosystem has no choice but disabling(*)=
 the spending of coins through schemes that become broken, and needs to hav=
e done so before such a machine exists.</div><div style=3D"font-family: Ari=
al, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: rgb=
(255, 255, 255);"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif; f=
ont-size: 14px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"=
>(*) There may exist ways of retaining the ability to spend coins in vulner=
able schemes, if they involve a PQC proof of knowledge of some additional s=
ecret, e.g. the xprv the key was derived with. It's a significant complicat=
ion, not and applicable to everything, but might be an option.</div><div st=
yle=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0)=
; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><br></div><div style=3D"font-famil=
y: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-colo=
r: rgb(255, 255, 255);">--&nbsp;<br></div><div style=3D"font-family: Arial,=
 sans-serif; font-size: 14px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: rgb(25=
5, 255, 255);">Pieter</div><div style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif; fo=
nt-size: 14px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">=
<br></div></div>

<p></p>

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