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From: Jameson Lopp <jameson.lopp@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2025 18:49:49 -0400
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Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] Unbreaking testnet4
To: Saint Wenhao <saintwenhao@gmail.com>
Cc: Bitcoin Development Mailing List <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>
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On Sun, Apr 27, 2025 at 12:47=E2=80=AFPM Saint Wenhao <saintwenhao@gmail.co=
m> wrote:

> What about introducing demurrage in testnet5 consensus rules?
>
In general it seems desirable for a testnet to be as close as possible to
mainnet's rules. Demurrage might be asking a bit much in terms of deviation=
.

I'd suggest simply disabling the halving logic and making it a perpetual 50
TBTC issuance. At that rate, it would still take ~8 years or so to surpass
the 21M limit and I'd think that testnets should be reset more frequently
than that.

>
> Testnet coins were supposed to be worthless. But it failed in both
> testnet3 and testnet4. In the meanwhile, signet was introduced, to make a
> more stable test network. However, signing blocks was listed on wiki page
> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Prohibited_changes as something, that "Require
> unanimous consent". And, as the history can tell us, people still wanted =
to
> test mining anyway, which is why testnet3 and testnet4 have much more
> chainwork than signet (and when it comes to signet, sending
> signed-but-unmined blocks to the miners was never implemented, so they ha=
d
> no chance to provide more hashing power).
>
> Another kind of change on the list, that would require consent, was
> increasing the total number of coins beyond 21 million. But then, testing
> supply limits would be harder, and it could cause integer overflows in so=
me
> cases. But: in all test networks, including testnet3, testnet4, and signe=
t,
> there was never a problem of "not enough coins for miners", so that chang=
e
> probably wouldn't solve any problems (and seeing it in action would take
> years anyway; testnet4 is still far from the first halving, and it is
> traded anyway, so that change won't fix it).
>
> Then, we have the third option, which was not yet tried in test networks:
> demurrage. There are two main options: burning coins, or re-assigning the=
m
> to someone else. To make a soft-fork out of it, re-assigning would be
> backward-incompatible, so it is probably easier to just implement burning=
,
> and just treat all coins older than N blocks in the same way, as OP_RETUR=
N,
> by simply invalidating transactions spending them on consensus level.
>
> Also, when it comes to maintaining testnet nodes, if it would be possible
> to automatically remove things from the UTXO set, then it would make
> Initial Blockchain Download easier, just because new nodes wouldn't need =
to
> synchronize everything, if old coins would be automatically invalidated. =
In
> practice, all nodes could be just running in pruned mode all the time, an=
d
> everything beyond the pruning point, could be simply ignored on consensus
> level (which would also prevent the UTXO set from exploding). And then, i=
f
> we would keep for example the last 2,016 blocks, then the whole chain wou=
ld
> never take more than 2016 * 4 MB =3D 8.064 GB of storage, and that's all =
we
> would need to send during Initial Blockchain Download to other nodes.
>
> poniedzia=C5=82ek, 31 marca 2025 o 22:50:27 UTC+2 Antoine Poinsot napisa=
=C5=82(a):
>
>> Good point on not having the flag day on a holiday. One or two weeks
>> sounds good to me.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Monday, March 24th, 2025 at 8:25 AM, Murch <mu...@murch.one> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >
>> > Errr, I wrote the same date as you, but I meant a week later,
>> 2026-01-08
>> > instead.
>> >
>> > -Murch
>> >
>> > On 2025-03-21 14:20, Murch wrote:
>> >
>> > > Hey Antoine and everyone,
>> > >
>> > > What you suggest makes sense to me. Since the 20-minute difficulty
>> > > exception is now exploited perpetually, it doesn=E2=80=99t serve its=
 intended
>> > > purpose of allowing developers to mine themselves a few coins easily
>> or
>> > > confirm their own non-standard transactions. In that case, it would
>> be
>> > > better to not have it at all.
>> > >
>> > > On 2025-03-18 07:29, 'Antoine Poinsot' via Bitcoin Development
>> Mailing
>> > > List wrote:
>> > >
>> > > > I propose to fix this by removing the difficulty reset rule from
>> > > > testnet4 through a flag day hard fork on 2026-01-01.
>> > >
>> > > I would suggest to pick a date that=E2=80=99s not a holiday in many =
places to
>> > > avoid disrupting people=E2=80=99s holiday, how about 2026-01-01 inst=
ead?
>> > >
>> > > Cheers,
>> > > Murch
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>> Groups "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group.
>> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
>> an email to bitcoindev+...@googlegroups.com.
>> > To view this discussion visit
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/7c6800f0-7b77-4aca-a4f9-250=
6a2410b29%40murch.one.
>>
>>
> --
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote g=
mail_quote_container"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sun, Apr 27,=
 2025 at 12:47=E2=80=AFPM Saint Wenhao &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:saintwenhao@gm=
ail.com">saintwenhao@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D=
"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(2=
04,204,204);padding-left:1ex">What about introducing demurrage in testnet5 =
consensus rules?<br></blockquote><div>In general it seems desirable for a t=
estnet to be as close as possible to mainnet&#39;s rules. Demurrage might b=
e asking a bit much in terms of deviation.</div><div><br></div><div>I&#39;d=
 suggest simply disabling the halving logic and making it a perpetual 50 TB=
TC issuance. At that rate, it would still take ~8 years or so to surpass th=
e 21M limit and I&#39;d think that testnets should be reset more frequently=
 than that.</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px =
0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br>Test=
net coins were supposed to be worthless. But it failed in both testnet3 and=
 testnet4. In the meanwhile, signet was introduced, to make a more stable t=
est network. However, signing blocks was listed on wiki page <a href=3D"htt=
ps://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Prohibited_changes" target=3D"_blank">https://en.bi=
tcoin.it/wiki/Prohibited_changes</a> as something, that &quot;Require unani=
mous consent&quot;. And, as the history can tell us, people still wanted to=
 test mining anyway, which is why testnet3 and testnet4 have much more chai=
nwork than signet (and when it comes to signet, sending signed-but-unmined =
blocks to the miners was never implemented, so they had no chance to provid=
e more hashing power).<br><br>Another kind of change on the list, that woul=
d require consent, was increasing the total number of coins beyond 21 milli=
on. But then, testing supply limits would be harder, and it could cause int=
eger overflows in some cases. But: in all test networks, including testnet3=
, testnet4, and signet, there was never a problem of &quot;not enough coins=
 for miners&quot;, so that change probably wouldn&#39;t solve any problems =
(and seeing it in action would take years anyway; testnet4 is still far fro=
m the first halving, and it is traded anyway, so that change won&#39;t fix =
it).<br><br>Then, we have the third option, which was not yet tried in test=
 networks: demurrage. There are two main options: burning coins, or re-assi=
gning them to someone else. To make a soft-fork out of it, re-assigning wou=
ld be backward-incompatible, so it is probably easier to just implement bur=
ning, and just treat all coins older than N blocks in the same way, as OP_R=
ETURN, by simply invalidating transactions spending them on consensus level=
.<br><br>Also, when it comes to maintaining testnet nodes, if it would be p=
ossible to automatically remove things from the UTXO set, then it would mak=
e Initial Blockchain Download easier, just because new nodes wouldn&#39;t n=
eed to synchronize everything, if old coins would be automatically invalida=
ted. In practice, all nodes could be just running in pruned mode all the ti=
me, and everything beyond the pruning point, could be simply ignored on con=
sensus level (which would also prevent the UTXO set from exploding). And th=
en, if we would keep for example the last 2,016 blocks, then the whole chai=
n would never take more than 2016 * 4 MB =3D 8.064 GB of storage, and that&=
#39;s all we would need to send during Initial Blockchain Download to other=
 nodes.<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"auto" class=3D"gmail_=
attr">poniedzia=C5=82ek, 31 marca 2025 o=C2=A022:50:27 UTC+2 Antoine Poinso=
t napisa=C5=82(a):<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"marg=
in:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1e=
x">Good point on not having the flag day on a holiday. One or two weeks sou=
nds good to me.
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>On Monday, March 24th, 2025 at 8:25 AM, Murch &lt;mu...@murch.one&gt; w=
rote:
<br>
<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; Errr, I wrote the same date as you, but I meant a week later, 2026=
-01-08
<br>&gt; instead.
<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; -Murch
<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; On 2025-03-21 14:20, Murch wrote:
<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; &gt; Hey Antoine and everyone,
<br>&gt; &gt;=20
<br>&gt; &gt; What you suggest makes sense to me. Since the 20-minute diffi=
culty
<br>&gt; &gt; exception is now exploited perpetually, it doesn=E2=80=99t se=
rve its intended
<br>&gt; &gt; purpose of allowing developers to mine themselves a few coins=
 easily or
<br>&gt; &gt; confirm their own non-standard transactions. In that case, it=
 would be
<br>&gt; &gt; better to not have it at all.
<br>&gt; &gt;=20
<br>&gt; &gt; On 2025-03-18 07:29, &#39;Antoine Poinsot&#39; via Bitcoin De=
velopment Mailing
<br>&gt; &gt; List wrote:
<br>&gt; &gt;=20
<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; I propose to fix this by removing the difficulty reset r=
ule from
<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; testnet4 through a flag day hard fork on 2026-01-01.
<br>&gt; &gt;=20
<br>&gt; &gt; I would suggest to pick a date that=E2=80=99s not a holiday i=
n many places to
<br>&gt; &gt; avoid disrupting people=E2=80=99s holiday, how about 2026-01-=
01 instead?
<br>&gt; &gt;=20
<br>&gt; &gt; Cheers,
<br>&gt; &gt; Murch
<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; --
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/d/msgid/bitcoindev/7c6800f0-7b77-4aca-a4f9-2506a2410b29%40murch.one" rel=
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<br></blockquote></div>

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