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Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2025 17:12:29 -0400
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Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] CTV + CSFS: a letter
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Note that you can always reply inline, you don't have to copy and paste quo=
tes, your email client=20
will do that for you :)
On 6/9/25 3:27 PM, /dev /fd0 wrote:
> Hi Matt,
>=20
> > I mean, sure, compared to something trivial doing something marginally=
-trivial has a lot bigger
> > surface area. But that isn't really an argument unless we're talking a=
bout something truly
> > complicated, and TXHASH absolutely is not.
>=20
> If you are referring to [BIP 346][0], it is not /marginally/ trivial comp=
ared to BIP 119.=20
> TxFieldSelector makes it super complex. That's without even considering t=
he possibilities when=20
> combined with CSFS.
The "marginally-trivial" comment was not in comparison to, rather in the ge=
neral sense. taking=20
hashes of various parts of the transaction based on a discriminator (with i=
ntermediate hashes and=20
caching to avoid hashed-data blowups) is absolutely marginally-trivial in t=
he context of recent soft=20
fork complexity.
> > If that goal includes more flexible tx field commitments (I imagine it
> > certainly does!) then we should do that, rather than taking a detour w=
e should make progress towards
> > the eventual goal!
>=20
> Sometimes the goal is easier to achieve through multiple steps with BIP 1=
19 being the first step in=20
> this case.
I believe you missed my comment addressing this specifically in the email y=
ou're replying to, let me=20
paste it here:
> I do not understand why people make this argument. Yes, the encoding of =
the opcode allows you to=20
turn it into an OP_NOP (or SUCCESS or whatever), that doesn't make it "upgr=
ade hook"-friendly. If we=20
think that we just want to do CTV but we want CTV to be upgradable later to=
be TXHASH, then we first=20
need to define the TXHASH hash and bitfield format, so that we can take the=
subset of it that=20
captures CTV and hard-code that. But, of course, if we do that work we shou=
ld clearly do TXHASH =F0=9F=99=82.
> There are several reasons to prefer BIP 119 over BIP 346, and I have lis=
ted some of them
> below, based on rationales shared in the [covenants support wiki][1]:
>
> 1. All the possible configurations need to be tested.
I mean....okay? Yes? And? Come on, this isn't a lot of work.
> 2. State carrying UTXOs will bloat=C2=A0the UTXO set.
State carrying UTXOs will bloat the UTXO set worse if its done via BitVM/GC=
? Come on...
> 3.=C2=A0BIP 346 could be activated in 2030 or later, once we better under=
stand how people are actually=20
> using covenants. This approach would be based on real-world usage rather =
than premature optimization=20
> without sufficient data.
This is similar to the argument I was replying to which you replied to here=
, and I think my original=20
response still stands and wasn't responded to at all:
> This is a much better argument =F0=9F=99=82. I'm a bit skeptical, though=
, that its quite this cut-and-dry.=20
For example, the utter hack of the BitVM-with-CTV variant pretty clearly po=
ints to us needing a more=20
fully featured commitment gadget to enable these things without the nonsens=
e they had to resort to.
IOW, we have concrete use-cases already for TXHASH-over-CTV (at least in th=
e sense that it would=20
simplify things that are currently very hacky), and if it avoids a future s=
oft fork by just enabling=20
the full set of things today vs some narrow subset, I don't see why we shou=
ldn't take on the extra=20
month of work.
Matt
--=20
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