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From: =?UTF-8?Q?Martin_Habov=C5=A1tiak?= <martin.habovstiak@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2025 22:11:09 +0200
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Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] Hashed keys are actually fully quantum secure
To: "David A. Harding" <dave@dtrt.org>
Cc: Bitcoin Development Mailing List <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>
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Hi,

conceptually they are the same idea, I didn't see that conversation before.

Howerver, in that conversation there seems to be a better developed scheme
that is more secure as far as I can tell. I have just assumed that the
chain cannot be censored profitably if the number of blocks to wait for is
high enough (why: the miners are giving up fees by not including the
transaction and the attacker would have to split the reward between all
miners but the honest user only needs to outbid the attacker once)

That other idea seems to work even if the chain is censored for arbitrary
number of blocks. In the meantime I was also thinking of a scheme that
allows you to commit early and then wait for a any time you want but with
the ability to detect that someone else is trying to spend it, so that you
can act quickly. In some sense it was more similar but still not that good.
The proposed scheme with unique decommitment is better and should be
implemented instead of my idea.

Anyway, I believe even my weaker idea is still good enough to make my point
given how hard it is to censor a transaction. My point wasn't saying that
my specific implementation is the best but saying we can postpone the
decision to implement a QR scheme to much later than what some people might
think.

Have a nice day!

Martin

D=C5=88a ne 30. 3. 2025, 17:41 David A. Harding <dave@dtrt.org> nap=C3=ADsa=
l(a):

> On 2025-03-16 08:25, Martin Habov=C5=A1tiak wrote:
> > It is possible to implement fully secure recovery if we forbid
> > spending of hashed keys unless done through the following scheme:
>
> Hi Martin,
>
> How does this differ from Tim Ruffing's version[1] of Guy Fawkes
> signatures?[2][3]
>
> Thanks, -Dave
>
> [1]
>
> https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/1518710367.3550.111.camel@mmci.uni-saarl=
and.de/
> (but see also the whole thread and the links in it)
>
> [2] https://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/archive/rja14/Papers/fawkes.pdf
>
> [3] Amusing exploration of a blockchain cryptocurrency without
> signatures by Joseph Bonneau and Andrew Miller:
> https://jbonneau.com/doc/BM14-SPW-fawkescoin.pdf (never saw it before,
> but it came up in my search results for a Guy Fawkes signatures
> reference).
>

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<div dir=3D"auto"><div dir=3D"auto">Hi,</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><d=
iv dir=3D"auto">conceptually they are the same idea, I didn&#39;t see that =
conversation before.<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Howerver,=
 in that conversation there seems to be a better developed scheme that is m=
ore secure as far as I can tell. I have just assumed that the chain cannot =
be censored profitably if the number of blocks to wait for is high enough (=
why: the miners are giving up fees by not including the transaction and the=
 attacker would have to split the reward between all miners but the honest =
user only needs to outbid the attacker once)</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></d=
iv><div dir=3D"auto">That other idea seems to work even if the chain is cen=
sored for arbitrary number of blocks. In the meantime I was also thinking o=
f a scheme that allows you to commit early and then wait for a any time you=
 want but with the ability to detect that someone else is trying to spend i=
t, so that you can act quickly. In some sense it was more similar but still=
 not that good. The proposed scheme with unique decommitment is better and =
should be implemented instead of my idea.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>=
<div dir=3D"auto">Anyway, I believe even my weaker idea is still good enoug=
h to make my point given how hard it is to censor a transaction. My point w=
asn&#39;t saying that my specific implementation is the best but saying we =
can postpone the decision to implement a QR scheme to much later than what =
some people might think.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"=
>Have a nice day!</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Martin=
</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_=
attr">D=C5=88a ne 30. 3. 2025, 17:41 David A. Harding &lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:dave@dtrt.org" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">dave@dtrt.org</a>&gt; =
nap=C3=ADsal(a):<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin=
:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">On 2025-03-16 08:2=
5, Martin Habov=C5=A1tiak wrote:<br>
&gt; It is possible to implement fully secure recovery if we forbid<br>
&gt; spending of hashed keys unless done through the following scheme:<br>
<br>
Hi Martin,<br>
<br>
How does this differ from Tim Ruffing&#39;s version[1] of Guy Fawkes <br>
signatures?[2][3]<br>
<br>
Thanks, -Dave<br>
<br>
[1] <br>
<a href=3D"https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/1518710367.3550.111.camel@mmci.=
uni-saarland.de/" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank=
">https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/1518710367.3550.111.camel@mmci.uni-saarl=
and.de/</a> <br>
(but see also the whole thread and the links in it)<br>
<br>
[2] <a href=3D"https://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/archive/rja14/Papers/fawkes.pdf" re=
l=3D"noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.cl.cam=
.ac.uk/archive/rja14/Papers/fawkes.pdf</a><br>
<br>
[3] Amusing exploration of a blockchain cryptocurrency without <br>
signatures by Joseph Bonneau and Andrew Miller: <br>
<a href=3D"https://jbonneau.com/doc/BM14-SPW-fawkescoin.pdf" rel=3D"norefer=
rer noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://jbonneau.com/doc/BM14-=
SPW-fawkescoin.pdf</a> (never saw it before, <br>
but it came up in my search results for a Guy Fawkes signatures <br>
reference).<br>
</blockquote></div></div>

<p></p>

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