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Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2025 14:23:30 +0000
To: James O'Beirne <james.obeirne@gmail.com>
From: "'Antoine Poinsot' via Bitcoin Development Mailing List" <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>
Cc: Greg Sanders <gsanders87@gmail.com>, Bitcoin Development Mailing List <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] A Taproot-native (re-)bindable transaction bundle proposal
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--b1=_8EaWQSj2nPOfydXj958OCkWVsfTyhxurQlPhQ
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Hi James,

I'll let readers decide for themselves whether your citation of that data w=
as intended to justify the content of the sentence that immediately followe=
d.

Thanks for the script. It is consistent with the numbers that Murch and I c=
ited. This is equivalent to picking 90-day as the moving average on 0xb10c'=
s website[^0]. Again, a quick glance at this graph gives a pretty good indi=
cation of the direction of Taproot adoption. The share of created outputs (=
by value) went from 1.6% a year ago to 6.7% today.

We all wish Bitcoin users adopted the latest technology faster than they do=
, but this is probably only going to get slower as Bitcoin matures. And the=
 trend from the past year gives some reason to be optimistic.

In any case, none of this is a reason to incentivize users to stay on older=
 versions of the scripting context by going out of our way to also enable n=
ew features there. If anything the slight nudge to upgrade to Taproot shoul=
d be seen as a good thing.

Best,
Antoine

[^0]: https://mainnet.observer/charts/output-type-distribution-amount/
On Friday, July 11th, 2025 at 7:39 PM, James O'Beirne <james.obeirne@gmail.=
com> wrote:

> Hi Antoine,
>
>> You state that between 0.1% and 0.75% of all bitcoins in existence are
>> held in P2TR outputs, and use this figure to conclude the
>> "overwhelming majority of **value transfer** in bitcoin is still
>> happening in a pre-Taproot script context".
>
> I think you might have misparsed my email; I wasn't using one
> observation to justify the other.
>
> I ran a script[0] to tally the value of newly created outputs by address
> type, and the node tells me that 93.5% of all output-value created over
> the last three months is non-P2TR.
>
> I'll leave it to you as to whether 93.5% constitutes an "overwhelming
> majority of value transfer," but I wouldn't really consider that
> characterization as dishonest.
>
>> In 2024 and 2025 between 20% and 40% of all onchain transfers used
>> Taproot[^0].
>
> If we're going to talk about cherry-picking, here's where to do it.
> From the previously linked mempool.space research post[1], they "find
> that the vast majority (86%) of p2tr UTXOs are sub-1000 sats in value."
> So the case for *ahem* "legitimate" Taproot activity is probably worse.
>
> [0]: https://gist.github.com/jamesob/1e3b07af5fbc1ef9bd9471d83f8d1fa6
> [1]: https://research.mempool.space/utxo-set-report/
>
>> We should not provide new features for an outdated scripting context
>> unless we have a strong reason to.
>
> Based on the numbers above, many users would likely disagree that
> witness v0 is outdated. Sure, there are benefits to Taproot and I like
> Schnorr signatures as much as the next guy, but the fact is that there's
> nothing wrong with wit v0 and most users of bitcoin still make use of
> it. Professionally, I'm in this position.
>
> I'll respond to the other stuff later.
>
> Sincerely,
> James
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups=
 "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group.
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--b1=_8EaWQSj2nPOfydXj958OCkWVsfTyhxurQlPhQ
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<div style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;">Hi James,</=
div><div style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;"><br></d=
iv><div style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;">I'll let=
 readers decide for themselves whether your citation of that data was inten=
ded to justify the content of the sentence that immediately followed.<br></=
div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;" class=3D"pr=
otonmail_signature_block protonmail_signature_block-empty">
    <div class=3D"protonmail_signature_block-user protonmail_signature_bloc=
k-empty">
       =20
            </div>
   =20
            <div class=3D"protonmail_signature_block-proton protonmail_sign=
ature_block-empty">
       =20
            </div>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;"><br></div><=
div style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;">Thanks for t=
he script. It is consistent with the numbers that Murch and I cited. This i=
s equivalent to picking 90-day as the moving average on 0xb10c's website[^0=
]. Again, a quick glance at this graph gives a pretty good indication of th=
e direction of Taproot adoption. The share of created outputs (by value) we=
nt from 1.6% a year ago to 6.7% today.</div><div style=3D"font-family: Aria=
l, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family: Arial=
, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;">We all wish Bitcoin users adopted the lates=
t technology faster than they do, but this is probably only going to get sl=
ower as Bitcoin matures. And the trend from the past year gives some reason=
 to be optimistic.<br></div><div style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif; f=
ont-size: 14px;"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif; fo=
nt-size: 14px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">=
In any case, none of this is a reason to incentivize users to stay on older=
 versions of the scripting context by going out of our way to also enable n=
ew features there. If anything the slight nudge to upgrade to Taproot shoul=
d be seen as a good thing.<br></div><div style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-=
serif; font-size: 14px;"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-s=
erif; font-size: 14px;">Best,<br>Antoine<br></div><div style=3D"font-family=
: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family:=
 Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;">[^0]: <span><a target=3D"_blank" rel=
=3D"noreferrer nofollow noopener" href=3D"https://mainnet.observer/charts/o=
utput-type-distribution-amount/">https://mainnet.observer/charts/output-typ=
e-distribution-amount/</a></span><br></div><div class=3D"protonmail_quote">
        On Friday, July 11th, 2025 at 7:39 PM, James O'Beirne &lt;james.obe=
irne@gmail.com&gt; wrote:<br>
        <blockquote class=3D"protonmail_quote" type=3D"cite">
            <div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Antoine,<br><br>&gt; You s=
tate that between 0.1% and 0.75% of all bitcoins in existence are<br>&gt; h=
eld in P2TR outputs, and use this figure to conclude the<br>&gt; "overwhelm=
ing majority of **value transfer** in bitcoin is still<br>&gt; happening in=
 a pre-Taproot script context".<br><br>I think you might have misparsed my =
email; I wasn't using one<br>observation to justify the other.<br><br>I ran=
 a script[0] to tally the value of newly created outputs by address<br>type=
, and the node tells me that 93.5% of all output-value created over<br>the =
last three months is non-P2TR.<br><br>I'll leave it to you as to whether 93=
.5% constitutes an "overwhelming<br>majority of value transfer," but I woul=
dn't really consider that<br>characterization as dishonest.<br><br>&gt; In =
2024 and 2025 between 20% and 40% of all onchain transfers used<br>&gt; Tap=
root[^0].<br><br>If we're going to talk about cherry-picking, here's where =
to do it.<br>From the previously linked <a href=3D"http://mempool.space" ta=
rget=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer nofollow noopener">mempool.space</a> rese=
arch post[1], they "find<br>that the vast majority (86%) of p2tr UTXOs are =
sub-1000 sats in value."<br>So the case for *ahem* "legitimate" Taproot act=
ivity is probably worse.<br><br>[0]: <a href=3D"https://gist.github.com/jam=
esob/1e3b07af5fbc1ef9bd9471d83f8d1fa6" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer =
nofollow noopener">https://gist.github.com/jamesob/1e3b07af5fbc1ef9bd9471d8=
3f8d1fa6</a><br>[1]: <a href=3D"https://research.mempool.space/utxo-set-rep=
ort/" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer nofollow noopener">https://resear=
ch.mempool.space/utxo-set-report/</a><br><br><br>&gt; We should not provide=
 new features for an outdated scripting context<br>&gt; unless we have a st=
rong reason to.<br><br>Based on the numbers above, many users would likely =
disagree that<br>witness v0 is outdated. Sure, there are benefits to Taproo=
t and I like<br>Schnorr signatures as much as the next guy, but the fact is=
 that there's<br>nothing wrong with wit v0 and most users of bitcoin still =
make use of<br>it. Professionally, I'm in this position.<br><br>I'll respon=
d to the other stuff later.<br><br>Sincerely,<br>James</div></div>

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