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Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] CTV + CSFS: a letter
From: Sjors Provoost <sjors@sprovoost.nl>
In-Reply-To: <CADL_X_faQhCGS78y0Nggm_h=x_cEtshhbrZDDhQ=FEgbDXkc-Q@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2025 17:58:15 +0200
Cc: Antoine Poinsot <darosior@protonmail.com>,
Matt Corallo <lf-lists@mattcorallo.com>,
Andrew Poelstra <apoelstra@wpsoftware.net>,
Bitcoin Development Mailing List <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>
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To: Jameson Lopp <jameson.lopp@gmail.com>
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Hi Jameson,
CTV does enable vaults, but the user has to (carefully) move coins into the=
vault themselves. Because CTV commits to the amount, among other things, y=
ou can't simply publish a vault address and receive arbitrary amounts there=
. They'd be stuck, committing to an impossible to satisfy CTV hash.
There's also the question of what, if anything, the user needs to backup af=
ter each deposit [0]. It's probably just the deposit transaction id, which =
is arguably something that can be recovered with some (?) work.
OP_CCV enables a more flexible design where the user can receive arbitrary =
amounts directly into their vault address, and with nothing to backup after=
initial setup (seeds + descriptor-like-thing).
Here's a demo functional test for an OP_CCV vault (without CTV): https://gi=
thub.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/32080
The problem with both demos is that they use boutique software. There's not=
yet a potentially interoperable standard to describe these things.
Hopefully some simple vault schemes can be shoehorned into the existing out=
put descriptor paradigm [1], because inventing a whole new way of making va=
ult-aware wallets interoperable would take many years.
To illustrate such schemes, I'd love to see a working demo using just a (pa=
tched) Bitcoin Core wallet. Though perhaps a library like BDK[2] is an easi=
er platform for such ideation. =20
- Sjors
[0] https://github.com/jamesob/simple-ctv-vault/issues/9
[1] https://delvingbitcoin.org/t/ctv-vault-output-descriptor/1766/8
[2] https://github.com/bitcoindevkit
> Op 13 jun 2025, om 17:41 heeft Jameson Lopp <jameson.lopp@gmail.com> het =
volgende geschreven:
>=20
[...]
>=20
> I'm not sure how to parse Antoine's claim that CTV+CSFS doesn't enable va=
ults given that there has already been a CTV vault client proof of concept =
for 3 years: https://github.com/jamesob/simple-ctv-vault
>=20
> On Fri, Jun 13, 2025 at 9:07=E2=80=AFAM Antoine Poinsot <darosior@protonm=
ail.com> wrote:
[...]
> That said, consensus-enforced vaults require a mechanism to forward any a=
mount received on a script A to a pre-committed script B. CTV+CSFS does not=
enable this, and a primitive that actually does (like CCV) is more controv=
ersial because of its potency.
[...]
> I also appreciate that CTV is nice to have for CCV vaults, but a potentia=
l future use case that is not enabled by one proposal cannot be used to mot=
ivate said proposal.
>=20
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