path: root/ee/4e1ae0b82b94a068f02c3ad615f9119122b740

Return-Path: <eric@voskuil.org>
Received: from smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (smtp1.linux-foundation.org
	[172.17.192.35])
	by mail.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6AEB6412
	for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
	Thu, 15 Jun 2017 05:04:43 +0000 (UTC)
X-Greylist: whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.7.6
Received: from mail-wr0-f177.google.com (mail-wr0-f177.google.com
	[209.85.128.177])
	by smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4601C8E
	for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
	Thu, 15 Jun 2017 05:04:39 +0000 (UTC)
Received: by mail-wr0-f177.google.com with SMTP id r103so4790532wrb.0
	for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
	Wed, 14 Jun 2017 22:04:39 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
	d=voskuil-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623;
	h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc
	:content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to;
	bh=+afcrprfXuMs7rA9XZK3erSzRepxENa67d+VE/+Oq8M=;
	b=hP/oaxj1HQFUfddqhxiRHJibTgtYHa7Zca1zOrMl4h1nf6+ZDbuVpz7gao2JPfxplJ
	f3GBe3edbZ3IrFpnLaPeClQMDeEdmR34KyoZE3jAvmF6+Ukl+jYRxp+XRQpk4KmBWdU1
	n15dzha+Vz0ssqjNIR8VKNlcKfmosywlzjQeWw020/pJODFzskw6t2eNuCgGeQEF8QaX
	tWxc729znEMAl03IcbnT6gwW7geOHp3rjKZz2rcyA4kJ6uEivvimtjL4KkftBuG5/1TB
	7yWkCCrflfX01d7l51F1CWjG94+aPZSuW/S4bmpYrj6PvM7AavjCSg4DgdNmqacBoOSy
	F96g==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
	d=1e100.net; s=20161025;
	h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc
	:content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to;
	bh=+afcrprfXuMs7rA9XZK3erSzRepxENa67d+VE/+Oq8M=;
	b=mSH6m+EujAUMqFt5gmoWwxPvCMYFNfT8qgsFgvR+CR2jSZ0AwH5tb9cPgJNTe4ZZaq
	fTwXciTk3kBMFOAe4SkVkJZfGM1cDuNoRXfCgJw2625b7/YR+U2B+JhmZkJpQlsMlBAi
	wVos1hLHeYBcMoG1ezD0cVWkz2PaQN7hjLm4cqy4OwPnwbDS7mTnnyTakJQbxVNxh0Cd
	4Bb2s8RWYfy2KC5BP4YX4yoUtZGuDCwLOCwwtlt7lT50oo8x8EtVq8lk9jwoahLjUgU+
	MkR2at5pXpyvTyQe0RGF7FM89bmmy7aKpbm9bIAWUgoQg12m3x8MDHhbUtGwBFxI/JNJ
	zl/g==
X-Gm-Message-State: AKS2vOy1MQpca/zMRscQH4s+uDlFY05nzIJd3BcP1Wsrf53UuZP+zDT2
	6qF6dro4k4ep21ZSl8hH/w==
X-Received: by 10.223.169.120 with SMTP id u111mr2081464wrc.203.1497503077632; 
	Wed, 14 Jun 2017 22:04:37 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [10.0.0.87] ([41.222.62.7])
	by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id m40sm1223736wrm.4.2017.06.14.22.04.35
	(version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128);
	Wed, 14 Jun 2017 22:04:36 -0700 (PDT)
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
	boundary=Apple-Mail-E31AFB64-EE44-4905-BE99-10FDFC73E173
Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0)
From: Eric Voskuil <eric@voskuil.org>
X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (14F89)
In-Reply-To: <CADL_X_e0wuKTUbAiYyuDuk74+DQ98j1kkmBPz5c5RjU4R7RB3Q@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2017 08:04:30 +0300
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-Id: <95BB8EA8-31F6-4131-B557-A35342FA17A1@voskuil.org>
References: <A6AE8145-8C8A-44C2-88D3-8574D895AF6B@gmail.com>
	<CAAS2fgT=0k0NJWsO_TtBRTi2VqZtzuT1d1Sk+KZ2+2PUcA71tg@mail.gmail.com>
	<A5275580-0EA3-4021-8E4E-55E214BCEECB@gmail.com>
	<CADL_X_fdZG50HHb3iOePrzuOwU55tAqP80u3--xXEDWBKL7=jg@mail.gmail.com>
	<31040BE1-64ED-4D05-BCBE-E80BC7B9A182@gmail.com>
	<CADL_X_e0wuKTUbAiYyuDuk74+DQ98j1kkmBPz5c5RjU4R7RB3Q@mail.gmail.com>
To: Jameson Lopp <jameson.lopp@gmail.com>
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DKIM_SIGNED,
	DKIM_VALID, HTML_MESSAGE, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE,
	RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham version=3.3.1
X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on
	smtp1.linux-foundation.org
X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 15 Jun 2017 10:51:50 +0000
Cc: Bitcoin Dev <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Proposal: Demonstration of Phase in Full Network
	Upgrade Activated by Miners
X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12
Precedence: list
List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev.lists.linuxfoundation.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/options/bitcoin-dev>,
	<mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/>
List-Post: <mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
List-Help: <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev>,
	<mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2017 05:04:43 -0000


--Apple-Mail-E31AFB64-EE44-4905-BE99-10FDFC73E173
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



> On Jun 14, 2017, at 9:55 PM, Jameson Lopp via bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev@lis=
ts.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>=20
>=20
>=20
>> On Wed, Jun 14, 2017 at 11:29 AM, Zheming Lin <heater@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hi Jameson:
>>=20
>>> =E5=9C=A8 2017=E5=B9=B46=E6=9C=8815=E6=97=A5=EF=BC=8C01:20=EF=BC=8CJames=
on Lopp <jameson.lopp@gmail.com> =E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> On Wed, Jun 14, 2017 at 9:39 AM, Zheming Lin via bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-de=
v@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> > =E5=9C=A8 2017=E5=B9=B46=E6=9C=8814=E6=97=A5=EF=BC=8C02:11=EF=BC=8CGr=
egory Maxwell <greg@xiph.org> =E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A
>>>> >
>>>> > On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 2:23 AM, Zheming Lin via bitcoin-dev
>>>> > <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>> > The enforcement of the system's rules by users broadly, and not just
>>>> > miners, is specifically described in the white paper (section 8,
>>>> > paragraph 2, it especially clear in the last sentence).  This is
>>>> > critical for the security of Bitcoin especially with the current
>>>> > degree of centralization in pools.  Without it, Bitcoin's security
>>>> > would look a lot more like the Ripple system.
>>>> >
>>>>=20
>>>> =E6=98=AF=E7=9A=84=EF=BC=8C=E7=94=A8=E6=88=B7=E6=B0=B8=E8=BF=9C=E9=83=BD=
=E6=9C=89=E9=80=89=E6=8B=A9=EF=BC=8C=E5=B9=B6=E5=8F=AF=E4=BB=A5=E6=8A=9B=E5=BC=
=83=E9=82=A3=E4=BA=9B=E8=8A=82=E7=82=B9=E3=80=82=E8=BF=99=E4=B8=AA BIP =E5=B9=
=B6=E6=B2=A1=E6=9C=89=E5=8F=8D=E5=AF=B9=E8=BF=99=E4=BA=9B=E7=94=A8=E6=88=B7=E8=
=BF=99=E4=B9=88=E5=81=9A=E3=80=82=E5=8F=AA=E6=9C=89=E9=82=A3=E4=BA=9B=E8=A2=AB=
=E5=8A=A8=E7=9A=84=E9=92=B1=E5=8C=85=E7=94=A8=E6=88=B7=EF=BC=8C=E4=BB=96=E4=BB=
=AC=E9=9C=80=E8=A6=81=E7=9F=A5=E9=81=93=E5=BF=85=E9=A1=BB=E5=81=9A=E5=87=BA=E4=
=B8=80=E4=B8=AA=E9=80=89=E6=8B=A9=E3=80=82=EF=BC=88=E8=80=8C=E4=B8=8D=E6=98=AF=
=E8=A2=AB=E5=8A=A8=E7=9A=84=E8=B7=9F=E9=9A=8F=E9=BB=98=E8=AE=A4=E7=9A=84=E7=AD=
=96=E7=95=A5=EF=BC=89
>>>> Yes, users always have choice that they can abandon the nodes. This BIP=
 does=E2=80=99t go against them. I mean only the one(especially wallets) tha=
t=E2=80=99s passive, they need to know there=E2=80=99s a choice and pick one=
.
>>>>=20
>>>> =E8=BF=99=E4=B8=AA BIP =E5=8F=AF=E4=BB=A5=E8=A2=AB=E5=BA=94=E7=94=A8=E4=
=BA=8E=E5=87=A0=E4=B9=8E=E4=BB=BB=E4=BD=95=E7=9A=84=E5=8D=87=E7=BA=A7=E4=B8=8A=
=EF=BC=8C=E5=8C=85=E6=8B=AC=E9=9A=94=E7=A6=BB=E8=A7=81=E8=AF=81=EF=BC=8C=E4=B8=
=A4=E5=85=86=E7=9A=84=E9=9A=94=E7=A6=BB=E8=A7=81=E8=AF=81=EF=BC=8C=E4=B8=A4=E5=
=85=86=E6=89=A9=E5=AE=B9=EF=BC=8C=E6=B6=8C=E7=8E=B0=E5=85=B1=E8=AF=86=EF=BC=8C=
=E5=85=AB=E5=85=86=E6=89=A9=E5=AE=B9=E7=AD=89=E3=80=82=E4=BD=86=E8=BF=99=E4=BA=
=9B=E5=8D=87=E7=BA=A7=E5=B9=B6=E4=B8=8D=E6=98=AF=E9=87=8D=E7=82=B9=E3=80=82
>>>> This BIP can be applied to almost any upgrade, including Segwit, Segwit=
2x, 2m, ec, 8m=E2=80=A6 but the upgrade is not the key point.
>>>>=20
>>>> =E5=88=B0=E5=BA=95=E6=88=91=E4=BB=AC=E7=9A=84=E7=94=A8=E6=88=B7=E6=98=AF=
=E5=90=A6=E7=9C=9F=E7=9A=84=E6=8B=A5=E6=9C=89=E9=80=89=E6=8B=A9=EF=BC=9F
>>>> Did the users have any real choice?
>>>>=20
>>>> =E6=88=91=E5=B9=B6=E4=B8=8D=E8=83=BD=E7=90=86=E8=A7=A3=E4=BB=96=E4=BB=AC=
=E7=9B=B8=E4=BF=A1=E5=A4=A7=E9=83=A8=E5=88=86=E7=9F=BF=E5=B7=A5=EF=BC=88=E5=B0=
=B1=E5=83=8F=E5=BD=93=E5=89=8D=E4=B8=80=E6=A0=B7=EF=BC=89=EF=BC=8C=E4=BD=86=E6=
=8B=92=E7=BB=9D=E8=BF=99=E4=BA=9B=E5=A4=9A=E6=95=B0=E7=9F=BF=E5=B7=A5=E5=AF=B9=
=E5=8D=8F=E8=AE=AE=E6=94=B9=E5=8F=98=E7=9A=84=E6=8A=95=E7=A5=A8=E7=BB=93=E6=9E=
=9C=E3=80=82
>>>> I don=E2=80=99t see the reason they trust the majority miners(as they d=
o today) but refuse the vote for upcoming protocol upgrade.
>>>=20
>>> To be clear, Bitcoin is not a democracy - if you find yourself using the=
 term "voting" then you may be misunderstanding how consensus forms. Once a f=
eature has been vetted and the code is deployed, miners may signal that they=
 are ready to enforce new rules. If for some reason miners are too "passive o=
r lazy" or wish to "veto" the activation of the new rules, users may choose t=
o circumvent said veto by refusing to accept blocks that do not show readine=
ss for enforcing the new rules.
>>=20
>> How does the users show their opinion? They can fork away and leave. But w=
hat remains will be united. Are you afraid of the united users or the fork?
>>=20
>> I agree with you that the =E2=80=9Cvote=E2=80=9D is not accurate. Could y=
ou kindly suggest an other word for that?
>>=20
>> I think users should have choice to follow the miners or not. Do you agre=
e with this or not?
>>=20
> Regarding consensus changes, users can voice their opinion on any number o=
f communication platforms. Though if you're looking for a way for users to s=
ignal their intentions at the protocol level, every proposal for doing that t=
o date has been arguably flawed.

There is exactly one way to express one's opinion on consensus at the protoc=
ol level - participation. The method is neither flawed nor inequitable in th=
e context of Bitcoin.

The only "problem" with it is that people are not satisfied with having a vo=
ice limited to their participation. People are used to political systems in w=
hich they vote using their existence as power, not their participation, and t=
hey expect some subset of existing human bodies to control all others. This i=
s the concept of some ruling over others, which gives the rulers a more powe=
rful voice than either their proportional existence or individual participat=
ion would allow.

Bitcoin exists in defiance of political models. It is a market, not a state.=
 The only choice you have is to participate or leave. If you are satisfied w=
ith others participating in your stead, you have left the consensus - you ha=
ve no say.

Most people who think they are participating in Bitcoin have either never pa=
rticipated or long ago left the consensus. Having surrendered it, these peop=
le now grope for a way to have their say. You can always reclaim your say on=
 consensus, but you cannot take it away from others.

To have your say regarding hard forks, you must validate Bitcoin received in=
 exchange for something else of economic value. To have your say regarding s=
oft forks you must mine. Everyone has these options. Hard forks cannot contr=
ol miners' selection of transactions and miners cannot control the economy's=
 determination of what is valid. If one wants a say in either one must parti=
cipate in the respective operation.

e

> Measuring meatspace consensus is pretty tricky if not completely impossibl=
e, especially given the fact that the vast majority of Bitcoin users do not v=
oice any opinions on the matter of consensus rules.
>=20
> Most attempts at measuring user consensus would probably be best described=
 as signaling rather than voting given that the act of doing so has no actua=
l power to affect consensus. Every user who runs a fully validating node is f=
ree to enforce the rules with which the agree regardless of what rules other=
 entities are enforcing.=20
>>> =20
>>>>=20
>>>> =E5=AF=B9=E9=92=B1=E5=8C=85=E7=94=A8=E6=88=B7=E7=9A=84=E9=80=89=E6=8B=A9=
=EF=BC=8C=E6=98=AF=E4=BB=96=E4=BB=AC=E6=98=AF=E5=90=A6=E7=9B=B8=E4=BF=A1=E5=A4=
=9A=E6=95=B0=E7=9F=BF=E5=B7=A5=E3=80=82=E5=A6=82=E6=9E=9C=E4=BB=96=E4=BB=AC=E4=
=B8=8D=E7=9B=B8=E4=BF=A1=EF=BC=8C=E5=8F=AF=E4=BB=A5=E9=80=9A=E8=BF=87=E5=88=86=
=E5=8F=89=E6=9D=A5=E6=B6=88=E9=99=A4=E6=8E=89=E7=9F=BF=E5=B7=A5=E3=80=82
>>>> This choice for wallet users right now, is wether to follow the 51% maj=
ority miners. If they don=E2=80=99t, they can have their fork that get rid o=
f miners.
>>>>=20
>>>> =E5=A6=82=E6=9E=9C=E4=BB=96=E4=BB=AC=E4=BB=8D=E6=97=A7=E7=9B=B8=E4=BF=A1=
=E7=9F=BF=E5=B7=A5=EF=BC=8C=E9=82=A3=E4=B9=88=E5=8F=AF=E4=BB=A5=E7=95=99=E4=B8=
=8B=E6=9D=A5=E5=B9=B6=E8=B7=9F=E9=9A=8F=E7=9F=BF=E5=B7=A5=E5=B0=86=E6=9D=A5=E7=
=9A=84=E5=8D=8F=E8=AE=AE=E6=94=B9=E5=8F=98=E3=80=82
>>>> If they do trust the majority miners, they stay and follow the vote for=
 upcoming protocol upgrade.
>>>>=20
>>>> =E6=89=80=E4=BB=A5=E9=97=AE=E9=A2=98=E5=9C=A8=E4=BA=8E=EF=BC=9A=E6=AF=94=
=E7=89=B9=E5=B8=81=E7=9A=84=E5=BC=80=E5=8F=91=E8=80=85=E3=80=81=E7=94=A8=E6=88=
=B7=E3=80=81=E6=8B=A5=E6=9C=89=E8=80=85=E3=80=81=E6=9C=8D=E5=8A=A1=E6=8F=90=E4=
=BE=9B=E8=80=85=E3=80=81=E7=94=9A=E8=87=B3=E7=9F=BF=E5=B7=A5=EF=BC=8C=E6=98=AF=
=E5=90=A6=EF=BC=88=E4=BB=8D=E7=84=B6=EF=BC=89=E5=A6=82=E7=99=BD=E7=9A=AE=E4=B9=
=A6=E4=B8=AD=E6=8F=8F=E8=BF=B0=E7=9A=84=E5=AF=B9=E5=A4=A7=E5=A4=9A=E6=95=B0=E7=
=9F=BF=E5=B7=A5=E6=8B=A5=E6=9C=89=E4=BF=A1=E4=BB=BB=E3=80=82
>>>> So the questions is: Do the bitcoin developers, users, holders, service=
 provides, even miners, (still) have faith in the majority of miners as desi=
gned in the white paper?
>>>>=20
>>> =20
>>> There is a fundamental misconception regarding this point - the white pa=
per refers to majority hashpower needing to be honest with regard to determi=
ning the correct chain within the context of many possible /valid/ chain for=
ks. It is not referring to using hashpower to determine the correct chain am=
ongst an infinitely variable number of currently invalid chain forks. Bitcoi=
n ecosystem participants should not have faith in miners (or any other entit=
y) when it comes to choosing the consensus rules they wish to enforce.
>>>=20
>>=20
>> Arrrgh. I think in the BIP, the miners just invalids tx version 1 tempora=
rily. That=E2=80=99s a =E2=80=9Csoft fork=E2=80=9D right? If they dislike th=
e idea, they can leave as always.
>>=20
> =46rom my understanding, if the only change miners make is to stop confirm=
ing transactions that have a version less than X then it should be a soft fo=
rk, yes.=20
>>=20
>> Regards
>>=20
>> LIN Zheming
>>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev

--Apple-Mail-E31AFB64-EE44-4905-BE99-10FDFC73E173
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div></div><div><br></div><div><br>On Jun 1=
4, 2017, at 9:55 PM, Jameson Lopp via bitcoin-dev &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bitc=
oin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>=
&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br=
><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Jun 14, 2=
017 at 11:29 AM, Zheming Lin <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:heater@=
gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">heater@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><bloc=
kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc=
 solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after=
-white-space"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-spac=
e">Hi Jameson:<br><div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span class=3D""><div>=E5=
=9C=A8 2017=E5=B9=B46=E6=9C=8815=E6=97=A5=EF=BC=8C01:20=EF=BC=8CJameson Lopp=
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jameson.lopp@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">jameson.lop=
p@gmail.com</a>&gt; =E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A</div><br class=3D"m_49372644=
45905329853Apple-interchange-newline"></span><div><br class=3D"m_49372644459=
05329853Apple-interchange-newline"><br style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-s=
ize:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;lette=
r-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-=
space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><div class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"font-fami=
ly:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-=
weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-tr=
ansform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span class=3D"">On Wed, J=
un 14, 2017 at 9:39 AM, Zheming Lin via bitcoin-dev<span class=3D"m_49372644=
45905329853Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank">bitcoin-=
dev@<wbr>lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>&gt;</span><span class=3D"m_4937264445=
905329853Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>wro<wbr>te:<br></span><blockquo=
te class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width=
:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left=
:1ex"><span class=3D""><span><br><br>&gt; =E5=9C=A8 2017=E5=B9=B46=E6=9C=881=
4=E6=97=A5=EF=BC=8C02:11=EF=BC=8CGregory Maxwell &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:greg@=
xiph.org" target=3D"_blank">greg@xiph.org</a>&gt; =E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A=
<br>&gt;<br>&gt; On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 2:23 AM, Zheming Lin via bitcoin-de=
v<br>&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" targe=
t=3D"_blank">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfounda<wbr>tion.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></=
span></span><span class=3D""><span><br>&gt; The enforcement of the system's r=
ules by users broadly, and not just<br>&gt; miners, is specifically describe=
d in the white paper (section 8,<br>&gt; paragraph 2, it especially clear in=
 the last sentence).&nbsp; This is<br>&gt; critical for the security of Bitc=
oin especially with the current<br>&gt; degree of centralization in pools.&n=
bsp; Without it, Bitcoin's security<br>&gt; would look a lot more like the R=
ipple system.<br>&gt;<br><br></span>=E6=98=AF=E7=9A=84=EF=BC=8C=E7=94=A8=E6=88=
=B7=E6=B0=B8=E8=BF=9C=E9=83=BD=E6=9C=89=E9=80=89=E6=8B=A9=EF=BC=8C=E5=B9=B6=E5=
=8F=AF=E4=BB=A5=E6=8A=9B=E5=BC=83=E9=82=A3=E4=BA=9B=E8=8A=82=E7=82=B9=E3=80=82=
=E8=BF=99=E4=B8=AA BIP =E5=B9=B6=E6=B2=A1=E6=9C=89=E5=8F=8D=E5=AF=B9=E8=BF=99=
=E4=BA=9B=E7=94=A8=E6=88=B7=E8=BF=99=E4=B9=88=E5=81=9A=E3=80=82=E5=8F=AA=E6=9C=
=89=E9=82=A3=E4=BA=9B=E8=A2=AB=E5=8A=A8=E7=9A=84=E9=92=B1=E5=8C=85=E7=94=A8=E6=
=88=B7=EF=BC=8C=E4=BB=96=E4=BB=AC=E9=9C=80=E8=A6=81=E7=9F=A5<wbr>=E9=81=93=E5=
=BF=85=E9=A1=BB=E5=81=9A=E5=87=BA=E4=B8=80=E4=B8=AA=E9=80=89=E6=8B=A9=E3=80=82=
=EF=BC=88=E8=80=8C=E4=B8=8D=E6=98=AF=E8=A2=AB=E5=8A=A8=E7=9A=84=E8=B7=9F=E9=9A=
=8F=E9=BB=98=E8=AE=A4=E7=9A=84=E7=AD=96=E7=95=A5=EF=BC=89<br>Yes, users alwa=
ys have choice that they can abandon the nodes. This BIP does=E2=80=99t go a=
gainst them. I mean only the one(especially wallets) that=E2=80=99s passive,=
 they need to know there=E2=80=99s a choice and pick one.<br><br>=E8=BF=99=E4=
=B8=AA BIP =E5=8F=AF=E4=BB=A5=E8=A2=AB=E5=BA=94=E7=94=A8=E4=BA=8E=E5=87=A0=E4=
=B9=8E=E4=BB=BB=E4=BD=95=E7=9A=84=E5=8D=87=E7=BA=A7=E4=B8=8A=EF=BC=8C=E5=8C=85=
=E6=8B=AC=E9=9A=94=E7=A6=BB=E8=A7=81=E8=AF=81=EF=BC=8C=E4=B8=A4=E5=85=86=E7=9A=
=84=E9=9A=94=E7=A6=BB=E8=A7=81=E8=AF=81=EF=BC=8C<wbr>=E4=B8=A4=E5=85=86=E6=89=
=A9=E5=AE=B9=EF=BC=8C=E6=B6=8C=E7=8E=B0=E5=85=B1=E8=AF=86=EF=BC=8C=E5=85=AB=E5=
=85=86=E6=89=A9=E5=AE=B9=E7=AD=89=E3=80=82=E4=BD=86=E8=BF=99=E4=BA=9B=E5=8D=87=
=E7=BA=A7=E5=B9=B6=E4=B8=8D=E6=98=AF=E9=87=8D=E7=82=B9=E3=80=82<br>This BIP c=
an be applied to almost any upgrade, including Segwit, Segwit2x, 2m, ec, 8m=E2=
=80=A6 but the upgrade is not the key point.<br><br>=E5=88=B0=E5=BA=95=E6=88=
=91=E4=BB=AC=E7=9A=84=E7=94=A8=E6=88=B7=E6=98=AF=E5=90=A6=E7=9C=9F=E7=9A=84=E6=
=8B=A5=E6=9C=89=E9=80=89=E6=8B=A9=EF=BC=9F<br>Did the users have any real ch=
oice?<br><br>=E6=88=91=E5=B9=B6=E4=B8=8D=E8=83=BD=E7=90=86=E8=A7=A3=E4=BB=96=
=E4=BB=AC=E7=9B=B8=E4=BF=A1=E5=A4=A7=E9=83=A8=E5=88=86=E7=9F=BF=E5=B7=A5=EF=BC=
=88=E5=B0=B1=E5=83=8F=E5=BD=93=E5=89=8D=E4=B8=80=E6=A0=B7=EF=BC=89=EF=BC=8C=E4=
=BD=86=E6=8B=92=E7=BB=9D=E8=BF=99=E4=BA=9B=E5=A4=9A<wbr>=E6=95=B0=E7=9F=BF=E5=
=B7=A5=E5=AF=B9=E5=8D=8F=E8=AE=AE=E6=94=B9=E5=8F=98=E7=9A=84=E6=8A=95=E7=A5=A8=
=E7=BB=93=E6=9E=9C=E3=80=82<br>I don=E2=80=99t see the reason they trust the=
 majority miners(as they do today) but refuse the vote for upcoming protocol=
 upgrade.<br></span></blockquote><span class=3D""><div><br></div><div>To be c=
lear, Bitcoin is not a democracy - if you find yourself using the term "voti=
ng" then you may be misunderstanding how consensus forms. Once a feature has=
 been vetted and the code is deployed, miners may signal that they are ready=
 to enforce new rules. If for some reason miners are too "passive or lazy" o=
r wish to "veto" the activation of the new rules, users may choose to circum=
vent said veto by refusing to accept blocks that do not show readiness for e=
nforcing the new rules.</div></span></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>=
<div>How does the users show their opinion? They can fork away and leave. Bu=
t what remains will be united. Are you afraid of the united users or the for=
k?</div><div><br></div><div>I agree with you that the =E2=80=9Cvote=E2=80=9D=
 is not accurate. Could you kindly suggest an other word for that?</div><div=
><br></div><div>I think users should have choice to follow the miners or not=
. Do you agree with this or not?</div><span class=3D""><br></span></div></di=
v></div></blockquote><div>Regarding consensus changes, users can voice their=
 opinion on any number of communication platforms. Though if you're looking f=
or a way for users to signal their intentions at the protocol level, every p=
roposal for doing that to date has been arguably flawed.</div></div></div></=
div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>There is exactly one way to expre=
ss one's opinion on consensus at the protocol level - participation. The met=
hod is neither flawed nor inequitable in the context of Bitcoin.</div><div><=
br></div><div>The only "problem" with it is that people are not satisfied wi=
th having a voice limited to their participation. People are used to politic=
al systems in which they vote using their existence as power, not their part=
icipation, and they expect some subset of existing human bodies to control a=
ll others. This is the concept of some ruling over others, which gives the r=
ulers a more powerful voice than either their proportional existence or indi=
vidual participation would allow.</div><div><br></div><div>Bitcoin exists in=
 defiance of political models. It is a market, not a state. The only choice y=
ou have is to participate or leave. If you are satisfied with others partici=
pating in your stead, you have left the consensus - you have no say.</div><d=
iv><br></div><div>Most people who think they are participating in Bitcoin ha=
ve either never participated or long ago left the consensus. Having surrende=
red it, these people now grope for a way to have their say. You can always r=
eclaim your say on consensus, but you cannot take it away from others.</div>=
<div><br></div><div>To have your say regarding hard forks, you must validate=
 Bitcoin received in exchange for something else of economic value. To have y=
our say regarding soft forks you must mine. Everyone has these options. Hard=
 forks cannot control miners' selection of transactions and miners cannot co=
ntrol the economy's determination of what is valid. If one wants a say in ei=
ther one must participate in the respective operation.</div><div><br></div><=
div>e</div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D=
"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>Measuring meatspace consensus i=
s pretty tricky if not completely impossible, especially given the fact that=
 the vast majority of Bitcoin users do not voice any opinions on the matter o=
f consensus rules.</div><div><br></div><div>Most attempts at measuring user c=
onsensus would probably be best described as signaling rather than voting gi=
ven that the act of doing so has no actual power to affect consensus. Every u=
ser who runs a fully validating node is free to enforce the rules with which=
 the agree regardless of what rules other entities are enforcing.&nbsp;</div=
><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break=
:after-white-space"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-whit=
e-space"><div><span class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div class=3D"=
gmail_quote" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal=
;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-alig=
n:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:=
0px"><div>&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color=
:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br>=E5=AF=B9=E9=92=B1=E5=8C=85=E7=94=A8=
=E6=88=B7=E7=9A=84=E9=80=89=E6=8B=A9=EF=BC=8C=E6=98=AF=E4=BB=96=E4=BB=AC=E6=98=
=AF=E5=90=A6=E7=9B=B8=E4=BF=A1=E5=A4=9A=E6=95=B0=E7=9F=BF=E5=B7=A5=E3=80=82=E5=
=A6=82=E6=9E=9C=E4=BB=96=E4=BB=AC=E4=B8=8D=E7=9B=B8=E4=BF=A1=EF=BC=8C=E5=8F=AF=
<wbr>=E4=BB=A5=E9=80=9A=E8=BF=87=E5=88=86=E5=8F=89=E6=9D=A5=E6=B6=88=E9=99=A4=
=E6=8E=89=E7=9F=BF=E5=B7=A5=E3=80=82<br>This choice for wallet users right n=
ow, is wether to follow the 51% majority miners. If they don=E2=80=99t, they=
 can have their fork that get rid of miners.<br><br>=E5=A6=82=E6=9E=9C=E4=BB=
=96=E4=BB=AC=E4=BB=8D=E6=97=A7=E7=9B=B8=E4=BF=A1=E7=9F=BF=E5=B7=A5=EF=BC=8C=E9=
=82=A3=E4=B9=88=E5=8F=AF=E4=BB=A5=E7=95=99=E4=B8=8B=E6=9D=A5=E5=B9=B6=E8=B7=9F=
=E9=9A=8F=E7=9F=BF=E5=B7=A5=E5=B0=86=E6=9D=A5=E7=9A=84=E5=8D=8F=E8=AE=AE=E6=94=
=B9=E5=8F=98<wbr>=E3=80=82<br>If they do trust the majority miners, they sta=
y and follow the vote for upcoming protocol upgrade.<br><br>=E6=89=80=E4=BB=A5=
=E9=97=AE=E9=A2=98=E5=9C=A8=E4=BA=8E=EF=BC=9A=E6=AF=94=E7=89=B9=E5=B8=81=E7=9A=
=84=E5=BC=80=E5=8F=91=E8=80=85=E3=80=81=E7=94=A8=E6=88=B7=E3=80=81=E6=8B=A5=E6=
=9C=89=E8=80=85=E3=80=81=E6=9C=8D=E5=8A=A1=E6=8F=90=E4=BE=9B=E8=80=85=E3=80=81=
=E7=94=9A=E8=87=B3<wbr>=E7=9F=BF=E5=B7=A5=EF=BC=8C=E6=98=AF=E5=90=A6=EF=BC=88=
=E4=BB=8D=E7=84=B6=EF=BC=89=E5=A6=82=E7=99=BD=E7=9A=AE=E4=B9=A6=E4=B8=AD=E6=8F=
=8F=E8=BF=B0=E7=9A=84=E5=AF=B9=E5=A4=A7=E5=A4=9A=E6=95=B0=E7=9F=BF=E5=B7=A5=E6=
=8B=A5=E6=9C=89=E4=BF=A1=E4=BB=BB=E3=80=82<br>So the questions is: Do the bi=
tcoin developers, users, holders, service provides, even miners, (still) hav=
e faith in the majority of miners as designed in the white paper?<br><span><=
br></span></blockquote><div>&nbsp;</div><div>There is a fundamental misconce=
ption regarding this point - the white paper refers to majority hashpower ne=
eding to be honest with regard to determining the correct chain within the c=
ontext of many possible /valid/ chain forks. It is not referring to using ha=
shpower to determine the correct chain amongst an infinitely variable number=
 of currently invalid chain forks. Bitcoin ecosystem participants should not=
 have faith in miners (or any other entity) when it comes to choosing the co=
nsensus rules they wish to enforce.</div><div><br></div></div></div></blockq=
uote><div><br></div></span><div>Arrrgh. I think in the BIP, the miners just i=
nvalids tx version 1 temporarily. That=E2=80=99s a =E2=80=9Csoft fork=E2=80=9D=
 right? If they dislike the idea, they can leave as always.</div><div><br></=
div></div></div></div></blockquote><div>=46rom my understanding, if the only=
 change miners make is to stop confirming transactions that have a version l=
ess than X then it should be a soft fork, yes.&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D=
"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-=
left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space"><=
div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space"><div><div></=
div><div><br></div><div>Regards</div><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#=
888888"><div><br></div><div>LIN Zheming</div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>=
<div class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;fon=
t-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:no=
rmal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal=
;word-spacing:0px"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px=
 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:r=
gb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"m_4937264445905329853HOEnZb"=
><div class=3D"m_4937264445905329853h5"></div></div></blockquote></div></div=
></blockquote></font></span></div><br></div></div></blockquote></div><br></d=
iv></div>
</div></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><span>____________________=
___________________________</span><br><span>bitcoin-dev mailing list</span><=
br><span><a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org">bitcoin-de=
v@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a></span><br><span><a href=3D"https://lists.lin=
uxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev">https://lists.linuxfoundation=
.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev</a></span><br></div></blockquote></body></=
html>=

--Apple-Mail-E31AFB64-EE44-4905-BE99-10FDFC73E173--