path: root/da/c464576f1d46ef26134136376ed6f0ee125281

Return-Path: <ajwest@gmail.com>
Received: from smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (smtp1.linux-foundation.org
	[172.17.192.35])
	by mail.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 442D5E5C
	for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
	Mon,  8 Jan 2018 15:27:01 +0000 (UTC)
X-Greylist: whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.7.6
Received: from mail-ot0-f178.google.com (mail-ot0-f178.google.com
	[74.125.82.178])
	by smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 136244FA
	for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
	Mon,  8 Jan 2018 15:27:00 +0000 (UTC)
Received: by mail-ot0-f178.google.com with SMTP id p31so9511032ota.4
	for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
	Mon, 08 Jan 2018 07:26:59 -0800 (PST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025;
	h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to
	:cc; bh=W8IJfwgCJkT9nVOkqcg61deaXGkRbcE8eQcjnnZhySc=;
	b=L8ilndDIys7xL+ZT/XFyw/Bu6S+oHXwJVL2Z6SXlge3qcZBECnn89KEEhLEcU8omTH
	js9uzVE954gVeM2c32N/Rj9CpM/VWtae2GYXPkXSTZt4PXZdYfuoKF/47GFj1x9F559f
	ts+D0FJtJZZM0upVYUVOI3wRZaVz7srMQWFXz6C0lEXRogSam1rD+gyEfjnL6/p5Irsa
	IQlhu2mfEowG3QCzBlZGCBh6wAH8PIZnokqpI870cbn8GjIAOUPTvT5ORum8q5WwPR72
	+4fWrcih2aazGVovQkoRnN37gdwMT4Lg+3e3t0UtCTGROzDKONlmXdm9/8mZqlOEn+QV
	gx8w==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
	d=1e100.net; s=20161025;
	h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date
	:message-id:subject:to:cc;
	bh=W8IJfwgCJkT9nVOkqcg61deaXGkRbcE8eQcjnnZhySc=;
	b=i9hzXcgFM7GCsvd6WG0beoXLBNce5zRxSL7SbD+EYhtMBQ85JyZsRKHr8mvpsQTS1o
	mrtZJGaIoo2XBJTYa1DDscE5IQmDh+/1WD86v9/FVI8zqMxxRL7ETaTtfqfO2ocCEwEp
	8pV/Q/ZpGQW91BcbuEe2FbaZdYWFAXm6z/UBd3e2Lh77LJczaifOPzWik+ZWc3m0raor
	0ejvsVPOjgVRWWDB/emb+zEZFLHyKMSgtNatrW+os5b5PmeEVnp0dPWaXIUbhPEtW2qA
	8oto1K7j/NRm5fiSpaGw/w0EAjCuZtFC4PjWIUjTEdoWcZmH/CdA+6oSg9vmVRPJWxbc
	mNBA==
X-Gm-Message-State: AKwxytc1k5uT+85cYWnE2/IFHiM21w+qwRhFFYwq9+hakJq3tAA5lhHY
	n0xx25eXqqMEwlxoQYFtUZlLLEAE4g2UxRoDCbA=
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACJfBosCIe5ktNu2eITHt/k/94p5MZWQ5M3ft82fL6cPWhvKZHV5RbO3G8Gu8nUGn7bHrtJ3/rsMCQru84fvhgBotGc=
X-Received: by 10.157.4.43 with SMTP id 40mr7548853otc.160.1515425219092; Mon,
	08 Jan 2018 07:26:59 -0800 (PST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Received: by 10.157.89.18 with HTTP; Mon, 8 Jan 2018 07:26:38 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <CA+vKqYckHe-8dfZw0ktxNvqQP4XYHHKUJwfwsYhvYyj3BfOCkg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <57f5fcd8644c6f6472cd6a91144a6152@nym.zone>
	<d05bfa26-4f3d-77d1-5801-9ad59497f334@satoshilabs.com>
	<CACvEmnGcN+VtgK0MeRPBevRoMkyJrMOBQKLZP4NnLBc5+q8Cyg@mail.gmail.com>
	<eb643e5734bceeb918d116fb75c0d4b3@nym.zone>
	<CAB3F3DvcjSRHLYv16SsSb22TxyfdMrsKW-Z4pChEiuTmhG3KYQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+vKqYfo-G4oS4jZpL1_7sx9aTVKcje9NdjCs3Pu9JwW5-GTMQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAB3F3DsifkaCVE1xFvvn8+b-ixpq-NqmGd1vAS8V8niB9YLQsA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+vKqYckHe-8dfZw0ktxNvqQP4XYHHKUJwfwsYhvYyj3BfOCkg@mail.gmail.com>
From: AJ West <ajwest@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2018 10:26:38 -0500
Message-ID: <CABXVU6aa-CHzyWOgefzz5XgTS8vNUOUPbo4aWH4i0FZH=xFr9w@mail.gmail.com>
To: Matias Alejo Garcia <ematiu@gmail.com>, 
	Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a113ab7a0de2aff0562456d93"
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.3 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DKIM_SIGNED,
	DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU, FREEMAIL_FROM, HTML_MESSAGE,
	RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE, URIBL_BLACK autolearn=no version=3.3.1
X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on
	smtp1.linux-foundation.org
X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 08 Jan 2018 15:28:30 +0000
Cc: Greg Sanders <gsanders87@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] BIP 39: Add language identifier strings for
	wordlists
X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12
Precedence: list
List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev.lists.linuxfoundation.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/options/bitcoin-dev>,
	<mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/>
List-Post: <mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
List-Help: <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev>,
	<mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2018 15:27:01 -0000

--001a113ab7a0de2aff0562456d93
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Greg yes, there were already examples in this very thread of people
explaining how they use languages other than English. I'm shocked that so
many people are resisting the idea that just *maybe* there could be people
in other parts of the world who do not want to use or cannot use the strict
set of latin characters and words from the English language.

I agree with Sjors and maybe I'm simplifying too much, but can't we just
map an existing ISO/UTF language character standard to the seeds? Why is
there a word list at all? Choose a flexible encoding standard, create a
clever map to the bytes, make sure to include a checksum.

As an aside, I know there are some conventions which add space for error
correction but I personally don't love the idea of somebody inputting what
they think is the proper seed, only to have it auto-corrected and thus
reinforcing their erroneously saved/written seed backup.

Pavol, why do you say "I learned that it was something I should've been
more persistently against?" I still can't see any good arguments as to why
we should limit this to English other than "It's easier to support a single
language" which comes at the cost of "It's hard for me to backup my seed"
for those who don't speak English.

On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 10:23 AM, Matias Alejo Garcia via bitcoin-dev <
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:

> > Let me re-phrase: Is it a known thing for users to actually use it?
>
> yes. Based on language stats from the app stores, roughly 30% to 40% of
> Copay users have their backup on a language
> other than English, and we constantly get requests to support new
> languages in BIP39.
>
> On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 11:54 AM, Greg Sanders <gsanders87@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Let me re-phrase: Is it a known thing for users to actually use it?
>>
>> On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 9:52 AM, Matias Alejo Garcia <ematiu@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 11:34 AM, Greg Sanders via bitcoin-dev <
>>> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Has anyone actually used the multilingual support in bip39?
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Copay (and all its clones) use it.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> If a feature of the standard has not been(widely?) used in years, and
>>>> isn't supported in any major wallet(?), it seems indicative it was a
>>>> mistake to add it in the first place, since it's a footgun in the maki=
ng
>>>> for some poor sap who can't even read English letters when almost all
>>>> documentation is written in English.
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 6:13 AM, nullius via bitcoin-dev <
>>>> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 2018-01-08 at 07:35:52 +0000, =E6=9C=A8=E3=83=8E=E4=B8=8B=E3=81=98=
=E3=82=87=E3=81=AA <kinoshitajona@gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> This is very sad.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The number one problem in Japan with BIP39 seeds is with English
>>>>>> words.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have seen a 60 year old Japanese man writing down his phrase
>>>>>> (because he kept on failing recovery), and watched him write down "a=
neter"
>>>>>> for "amateur"...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [...]
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you understand English and can spell, you read a word, your brain
>>>>>> processes the word, and you can spell it on your own when writing do=
wn.
>>>>>> Not many Japanese people can do that, so they need to copy letter fo=
r
>>>>>> letter, taking a long time, and still messing up on occasion.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [...]
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Defining "everyone should only use English, because ASCII is easier
>>>>>> to plan for" is not a good way to move forward as a currency.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Well said.  Thank you for telling of these experiences.  Now please,
>>>>> let=E2=80=99s put the shoe on the other foot.
>>>>>
>>>>> I ask everybody who wants an English-only mnemonic standard to entrus=
t
>>>>> *their own money* to their abilities to very, very carefully write th=
is
>>>>> down=E2=80=94then later, type it back in:
>>>>>
>>>>> =E3=81=99=E3=81=95=E3=82=93 =E3=81=9F=E3=82=93=E3=82=8D =E3=82=8A=E3=
=82=86=E3=81=86 =E3=81=97=E3=82=82=E3=82=93 =E3=81=A6=E3=81=84=E3=81=8A=E3=
=82=93 =E3=81=97=E3=81=A8=E3=81=86
>>>>> =E3=81=A8=E3=81=93=E3=82=84 =E3=81=AF=E3=82=84=E3=81=84 =E3=81=8A=E3=
=81=86=E3=81=95=E3=81=BE =E3=81=BB=E3=81=8F=E3=82=8D =E3=81=91=E3=81=A1=E3=
=82=83=E3=81=A3=E3=81=B5 =E3=81=9F=E3=82=82=E3=81=A4
>>>>>
>>>>> (Approximate translation:  =E2=80=9CWhatever would you do if Bitcoin =
had been
>>>>> invented by somebody named Satoshi Nakamoto?=E2=80=9D)
>>>>>
>>>>> No, wait:  That is only a 12-word mnemonic.  We are probably talking
>>>>> about a Trezor; so now, hey you there, stake the backup of your life=
=E2=80=99s
>>>>> savings on your ability to handwrite *this*:
>>>>>
>>>>> =E3=81=AB=E3=81=82=E3=81=86 =E3=81=97=E3=81=B2=E3=82=87=E3=81=86 =E3=
=81=AB=E3=82=93=E3=81=99=E3=81=86 =E3=81=B2=E3=81=88=E3=82=8B =E3=81=8B=E3=
=81=84=E3=81=93=E3=81=86 =E3=81=84=E3=81=AE=E3=82=8B =E3=81=AD=E3=82=93=E3=
=81=97 =E3=81=AF=E3=81=82=E3=81=95=E3=82=93 =E3=81=B2=E3=81=93=E3=81=8F
>>>>> =E3=81=A8=E3=81=86=E3=81=8F =E3=81=8D=E3=82=82=E3=81=9F=E3=82=81=E3=
=81=97 =E3=81=9D=E3=81=AA=E3=81=9F =E3=81=93=E3=81=AA=E3=81=93=E3=81=AA =E3=
=81=AB=E3=81=95=E3=82=93=E3=81=8B=E3=81=9F=E3=82=93=E3=81=9D =E3=82=8D=E3=
=82=93=E3=81=8D =E3=82=81=E3=81=84=E3=81=82=E3=82=93 =E3=81=BF=E3=82=8F=E3=
=81=8F
>>>>> =E3=81=B8=E3=81=93=E3=82=80 =E3=81=99=E3=81=B2=E3=82=87=E3=81=86 =E3=
=81=8A=E3=82=84=E3=82=86=E3=81=B2 =E3=81=B5=E3=81=9B=E3=81=8F =E3=81=91=E3=
=81=95=E3=81=8D =E3=82=81=E3=81=84=E3=81=8D=E3=82=87=E3=81=8F =E3=81=93=E3=
=82=93=E3=81=BE=E3=81=91
>>>>>
>>>>> Ready to bet your money on *that* as a backup phrase in your own
>>>>> hands?  No?  Then please, stop demanding that others risk *their* mon=
ey on
>>>>> the inverse case.
>>>>>
>>>>> ----
>>>>>
>>>>> If you cheat here by having studied Japanese, then remember that many
>>>>> Japanese people know English and other European languages, too.  Then=
 think
>>>>> of how much money would be lost by your non-Japanese-literate family =
and
>>>>> friends=E2=80=94if BIP 39 had only Japanese wordlists, and your folks=
 needed to
>>>>> wrestle with the above phrases as their =E2=80=9Cmnemonics=E2=80=9D.
>>>>>
>>>>> In such cases, the phrases cannot be called =E2=80=9Cmnemonics=E2=80=
=9D at all.  A
>>>>> =E2=80=9Cmnemonic=E2=80=9D implies aid to memory.  Gibberish in a who=
lly alien writing
>>>>> system is much worse even than transcribing pseudorandom hex strings.=
  The
>>>>> Japanese man in the quoted story, who wrote =E2=80=9Caneter=E2=80=9D =
for =E2=80=9Camateur=E2=80=9D, was not
>>>>> dealing with a *mnemonic*:  He was using the world=E2=80=99s most ine=
fficient means
>>>>> of making cryptic bitstrings *less* userfriendly.
>>>>>
>>>>> ----
>>>>>
>>>>> I began this thread with a quite simple request:  Is =E2=80=9C=E6=97=
=A5=E6=9C=AC=E8=AA=9E=E2=80=9D an
>>>>> appropriate string for identifying the Japanese language to Japanese
>>>>> users?  And what of the other strings I posted for other languages?
>>>>>
>>>>> I asked this as an implementer working on my own instance of the
>>>>> greatest guard against vendor lock-in and stale software:  Independen=
t
>>>>> implementations.  =E2=80=94  I asked, because obviously, I myself do =
not speak all
>>>>> these different languages; and I want to implement them all.  *All.*
>>>>>
>>>>> Some replies have been interesting in their own right; but thus far,
>>>>> nobody has squarely addressed the substance of my question.
>>>>>
>>>>> Most worrisome is that much of the discussion has veered into
>>>>> criticism of multi-language support.  I opened with a question about =
other
>>>>> languages, and I am getting replies which raise a hue and cry of =E2=
=80=9CEnglish
>>>>> only!=E2=80=9D
>>>>>
>>>>> Though I am fluent and literate in English, I am uninterested in ever
>>>>> implementing any standard of this nature which is artificially restri=
cted
>>>>> to English.  I am fortunate; for as of this moment, we have a standar=
d
>>>>> called =E2=80=9CBIP 39=E2=80=9D which has seven non-English wordlists=
, and four more
>>>>> pending in open pull requests (#432, #442, #493, #621).
>>>>>
>>>>> I request discussion of language identification strings appropriate
>>>>> for use with that standard.
>>>>>
>>>>> (P.S., I hope that my system did not mangle anything in the
>>>>> foregoing.  I have seen weird copypaste behaviour mess up decomposed
>>>>> characters.  I thought of this after I searched for and collected som=
e
>>>>> visually fascinating phrases; so I tried to normalize these to NFC...=
  It
>>>>> should go without saying, easyseed output the Japanese perfectly!)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> nullius@nym.zone | PGP ECC: 0xC2E91CD74A4C57A105F6C21B5A00591B2F307E0=
C
>>>>> Bitcoin: bc1qcash96s5jqppzsp8hy8swkggf7f6agex98an7h | (Segwit nested:
>>>>> 3NULL3ZCUXr7RDLxXeLPDMZDZYxuaYkCnG)  (PGP RSA: 0x36EBB4AB699A10EE)
>>>>> =E2=80=9C=E2=80=98If you=E2=80=99re not doing anything wrong, you hav=
e nothing to hide.=E2=80=99
>>>>> No!  Because I do nothing wrong, I have nothing to show.=E2=80=9D =E2=
=80=94 nullius
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> bitcoin-dev mailing list
>>>>> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
>>>>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> bitcoin-dev mailing list
>>>> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
>>>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Mat=C3=ADas Alejo Garcia
>>> @ematiu
>>> Roads? Where we're going, we don't need roads!
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Mat=C3=ADas Alejo Garcia
> @ematiu
> Roads? Where we're going, we don't need roads!
>
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>
>

--001a113ab7a0de2aff0562456d93
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Greg yes, there were already examples in this very thread =
of people explaining how they use languages other than English. I&#39;m sho=
cked that so many people are resisting the idea that=C2=A0just=C2=A0<i>mayb=
e</i>=C2=A0there could be people in other parts of the world who do not wan=
t to use or cannot use the strict set of latin characters and words from th=
e English language.<div><br></div><div>I agree with=C2=A0<span style=3D"fon=
t-size:12.8px;white-space:nowrap">Sjors and m</span>aybe I&#39;m simplifyin=
g too much, but can&#39;t we just map an existing ISO/UTF language characte=
r standard to the seeds? Why is there a word list at all? Choose a flexible=
 encoding standard, create a clever map to the bytes, make sure to include =
a checksum.</div><div><br></div><div>As an aside, I know there are some con=
ventions which add space for error correction but I personally don&#39;t lo=
ve the idea of somebody inputting what they think is the proper seed, only =
to have it auto-corrected and thus reinforcing their erroneously saved/writ=
ten seed backup.</div><div><br></div><div><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px;w=
hite-space:nowrap">Pavol, why do you say &quot;</span><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:12.8px">I=C2=A0</span><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px">learned that it =
was something I should&#39;ve been more persistently against?&quot; I still=
 can&#39;t see any good arguments as to why we should limit this to English=
 other than &quot;It&#39;s easier to support a single language&quot; which =
comes at the cost of &quot;It&#39;s hard for me to backup my seed&quot; for=
 those who don&#39;t speak English.</span></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_e=
xtra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 10:23 AM, Matia=
s Alejo Garcia via bitcoin-dev <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bitc=
oin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank">bitcoin-dev@lists.linu=
xfoundation.org</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><di=
v dir=3D"ltr"><span class=3D"">&gt;=C2=A0<span style=3D"font-size:12.8px">L=
et me re-phrase: Is it a known thing for users to actually use it?</span><d=
iv class=3D"m_-6634967038594159325gmail-yj6qo m_-6634967038594159325gmail-a=
jU" style=3D"font-size:12.8px"></div><br></span>yes. Based on language stat=
s from the app stores, roughly 30% to=C2=A040% of Copay users have their ba=
ckup on a language<div>other than English, and we constantly get requests t=
o support new languages in BIP39.=C2=A0</div></div><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><d=
iv class=3D"h5"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">O=
n Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 11:54 AM, Greg Sanders <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:gsanders87@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gsanders87@gmail.com</a>=
&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0=
 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">Let m=
e re-phrase: Is it a known thing for users to actually use it?</div><div cl=
ass=3D"m_-6634967038594159325HOEnZb"><div class=3D"m_-6634967038594159325h5=
"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Jan 8, =
2018 at 9:52 AM, Matias Alejo Garcia <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:ematiu@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">ematiu@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote=
:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-le=
ft:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmai=
l_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><span>On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 11:34 =
AM, Greg Sanders via bitcoin-dev <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bi=
tcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank">bitcoin-dev@lists.li=
nuxfounda<wbr>tion.org</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br></span><span><blockquote cl=
ass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;p=
adding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Has anyone actually used the multili=
ngual support in bip39?<br></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br=
></div></span><div>Copay (and all its clones) use it.=C2=A0</div><div><div =
class=3D"m_-6634967038594159325m_-3507240147884098865h5"><div><br></div><di=
v><br></div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quot=
e" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">=
<div dir=3D"ltr"><div></div><div><br></div><div>If a feature of the standar=
d has not been(widely?) used in years, and isn&#39;t supported in any major=
 wallet(?), it seems indicative it was a mistake to add it in the first pla=
ce, since it&#39;s a footgun in the making for some poor sap who can&#39;t =
even read English letters when almost all documentation is written in Engli=
sh.</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><d=
iv><div class=3D"m_-6634967038594159325m_-3507240147884098865m_701511936944=
2535395h5">On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 6:13 AM, nullius via bitcoin-dev <span di=
r=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" targ=
et=3D"_blank">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfounda<wbr>tion.org</a>&gt;</span> wro=
te:<br></div></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 =
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><div class=3D"m_-663=
4967038594159325m_-3507240147884098865m_7015119369442535395h5"><span>On 201=
8-01-08 at 07:35:52 +0000, =E6=9C=A8=E3=83=8E=E4=B8=8B=E3=81=98=E3=82=87=E3=
=81=AA &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:kinoshitajona@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">kin=
oshitajona@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
</span><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-=
left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><span>
This is very sad.<br>
<br>
The number one problem in Japan with BIP39 seeds is with English words.<br>
<br>
I have seen a 60 year old Japanese man writing down his phrase (because he =
kept on failing recovery), and watched him write down &quot;aneter&quot; fo=
r &quot;amateur&quot;...<br>
<br></span>
[...]<span><br>
<br>
If you understand English and can spell, you read a word, your brain proces=
ses the word, and you can spell it on your own when writing down.=C2=A0 Not=
 many Japanese people can do that, so they need to copy letter for letter, =
taking a long time, and still messing up on occasion.<br>
<br></span>
[...]<span><br>
<br>
Defining &quot;everyone should only use English, because ASCII is easier to=
 plan for&quot; is not a good way to move forward as a currency.<br>
</span></blockquote>
<br>
Well said.=C2=A0 Thank you for telling of these experiences.=C2=A0 Now plea=
se, let=E2=80=99s put the shoe on the other foot.<br>
<br>
I ask everybody who wants an English-only mnemonic standard to entrust *the=
ir own money* to their abilities to very, very carefully write this down=E2=
=80=94then later, type it back in:<br>
<br>
=E3=81=99=E3=81=95=E3=82=93=E3=80=80=E3=81=9F=E3=82=93=E3=82=8D=E3=80=80=E3=
=82=8A=E3=82=86=E3=81=86=E3=80=80=E3=81=97=E3=82=82=E3=82=93=E3=80=80=E3=81=
=A6=E3=81=84=E3=81=8A=E3=82=93=E3=80=80=E3=81=97=E3=81=A8=E3=81=86<br>
=E3=81=A8=E3=81=93=E3=82=84=E3=80=80=E3=81=AF=E3=82=84=E3=81=84=E3=80=80=E3=
=81=8A=E3=81=86=E3=81=95=E3=81=BE=E3=80=80=E3=81=BB=E3=81=8F=E3=82=8D=E3=80=
=80=E3=81=91=E3=81=A1=E3=82=83=E3=81=A3=E3=81=B5=E3=80=80=E3=81=9F=E3=82=82=
=E3=81=A4<br>
<br>
(Approximate translation:=C2=A0 =E2=80=9CWhatever would you do if Bitcoin h=
ad been invented by somebody named Satoshi Nakamoto?=E2=80=9D)<br>
<br>
No, wait:=C2=A0 That is only a 12-word mnemonic.=C2=A0 We are probably talk=
ing about a Trezor; so now, hey you there, stake the backup of your life=E2=
=80=99s savings on your ability to handwrite *this*:<br>
<br>
=E3=81=AB=E3=81=82=E3=81=86=E3=80=80=E3=81=97=E3=81=B2=E3=82=87=E3=81=86=E3=
=80=80=E3=81=AB=E3=82=93=E3=81=99=E3=81=86=E3=80=80=E3=81=B2=E3=81=88=E3=82=
=8B=E3=80=80=E3=81=8B=E3=81=84=E3=81=93=E3=81=86=E3=80=80=E3=81=84=E3=81=AE=
=E3=82=8B=E3=80=80=E3=81=AD=E3=82=93=E3=81=97=E3=80=80=E3=81=AF=E3=81=82=E3=
=81=95=E3=82=93=E3=80=80=E3=81=B2=E3=81=93=E3=81=8F<br>
=E3=81=A8=E3=81=86=E3=81=8F=E3=80=80=E3=81=8D=E3=82=82=E3=81=9F=E3=82=81=E3=
=81=97=E3=80=80=E3=81=9D=E3=81=AA=E3=81=9F=E3=80=80=E3=81=93=E3=81=AA=E3=81=
=93=E3=81=AA=E3=80=80=E3=81=AB=E3=81=95=E3=82=93=E3=81=8B=E3=81=9F=E3=82=93=
=E3=81=9D=E3=80=80=E3=82=8D=E3=82=93=E3=81=8D=E3=80=80=E3=82=81=E3=81=84=E3=
=81=82=E3=82=93=E3=80=80=E3=81=BF=E3=82=8F=E3=81=8F<br>
=E3=81=B8=E3=81=93=E3=82=80=E3=80=80=E3=81=99=E3=81=B2=E3=82=87=E3=81=86=E3=
=80=80=E3=81=8A=E3=82=84=E3=82=86=E3=81=B2=E3=80=80=E3=81=B5=E3=81=9B=E3=81=
=8F=E3=80=80=E3=81=91=E3=81=95=E3=81=8D=E3=80=80=E3=82=81=E3=81=84=E3=81=8D=
=E3=82=87=E3=81=8F=E3=80=80=E3=81=93=E3=82=93=E3=81=BE=E3=81=91<br>
<br>
Ready to bet your money on *that* as a backup phrase in your own hands?=C2=
=A0 No?=C2=A0 Then please, stop demanding that others risk *their* money on=
 the inverse case.<br>
<br>
----<br>
<br>
If you cheat here by having studied Japanese, then remember that many Japan=
ese people know English and other European languages, too.=C2=A0 Then think=
 of how much money would be lost by your non-Japanese-literate family and f=
riends=E2=80=94if BIP 39 had only Japanese wordlists, and your folks needed=
 to wrestle with the above phrases as their =E2=80=9Cmnemonics=E2=80=9D.<br=
>
<br>
In such cases, the phrases cannot be called =E2=80=9Cmnemonics=E2=80=9D at =
all.=C2=A0 A =E2=80=9Cmnemonic=E2=80=9D implies aid to memory.=C2=A0 Gibber=
ish in a wholly alien writing system is much worse even than transcribing p=
seudorandom hex strings.=C2=A0 The Japanese man in the quoted story, who wr=
ote =E2=80=9Caneter=E2=80=9D for =E2=80=9Camateur=E2=80=9D, was not dealing=
 with a *mnemonic*:=C2=A0 He was using the world=E2=80=99s most inefficient=
 means of making cryptic bitstrings *less* userfriendly.<br>
<br>
----<br>
<br>
I began this thread with a quite simple request:=C2=A0 Is =E2=80=9C=E6=97=
=A5=E6=9C=AC=E8=AA=9E=E2=80=9D an appropriate string for identifying the Ja=
panese language to Japanese users?=C2=A0 And what of the other strings I po=
sted for other languages?<br>
<br>
I asked this as an implementer working on my own instance of the greatest g=
uard against vendor lock-in and stale software:=C2=A0 Independent implement=
ations.=C2=A0 =E2=80=94=C2=A0 I asked, because obviously, I myself do not s=
peak all these different languages; and I want to implement them all.=C2=A0=
 *All.*<br>
<br>
Some replies have been interesting in their own right; but thus far, nobody=
 has squarely addressed the substance of my question.<br>
<br>
Most worrisome is that much of the discussion has veered into criticism of =
multi-language support.=C2=A0 I opened with a question about other language=
s, and I am getting replies which raise a hue and cry of =E2=80=9CEnglish o=
nly!=E2=80=9D<br>
<br>
Though I am fluent and literate in English, I am uninterested in ever imple=
menting any standard of this nature which is artificially restricted to Eng=
lish.=C2=A0 I am fortunate; for as of this moment, we have a standard calle=
d =E2=80=9CBIP 39=E2=80=9D which has seven non-English wordlists, and four =
more pending in open pull requests (#432, #442, #493, #621).<br>
<br>
I request discussion of language identification strings appropriate for use=
 with that standard.<br>
<br>
(P.S., I hope that my system did not mangle anything in the foregoing.=C2=
=A0 I have seen weird copypaste behaviour mess up decomposed characters.=C2=
=A0 I thought of this after I searched for and collected some visually fasc=
inating phrases; so I tried to normalize these to NFC...=C2=A0 It should go=
 without saying, easyseed output the Japanese perfectly!)<div class=3D"m_-6=
634967038594159325m_-3507240147884098865m_7015119369442535395m_-60343841903=
07218273HOEnZb"><div class=3D"m_-6634967038594159325m_-3507240147884098865m=
_7015119369442535395m_-6034384190307218273h5"><br>
<br>
-- <br>
nullius@nym.zone | PGP ECC: 0xC2E91CD74A4C57A105F6C21B5A00<wbr>591B2F307E0C=
<br>
Bitcoin: bc1qcash96s5jqppzsp8hy8swkggf7<wbr>f6agex98an7h | (Segwit nested:<=
br>
3NULL3ZCUXr7RDLxXeLPDMZDZYxuaY<wbr>kCnG)=C2=A0 (PGP RSA: 0x36EBB4AB699A10EE=
)<br>
=E2=80=9C=E2=80=98If you=E2=80=99re not doing anything wrong, you have noth=
ing to hide.=E2=80=99<br>
No!=C2=A0 Because I do nothing wrong, I have nothing to show.=E2=80=9D =E2=
=80=94 nullius<br>
</div></div><br></div></div><span>______________________________<wbr>______=
___________<br>
bitcoin-dev mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank">=
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundat<wbr>ion.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev" =
rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.linuxfoundation.<wbr>org=
/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-d<wbr>ev</a><br>
<br></span></blockquote></div><br></div>
<br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
bitcoin-dev mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank">=
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundat<wbr>ion.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev" =
rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.linuxfoundation.<wbr>org=
/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-d<wbr>ev</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div></div></div><span class=3D"m_-6634967038594159325m_-=
3507240147884098865HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br><br clear=3D"all"><d=
iv><br></div>-- <br><div class=3D"m_-6634967038594159325m_-3507240147884098=
865m_7015119369442535395gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"=
><div dir=3D"ltr">Mat=C3=ADas Alejo Garcia<br>@ematiu<br>Roads? Where we&#3=
9;re going, we don&#39;t need roads!</div></div>
</font></span></div></div>
</blockquote></div><br></div>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br>=
<div class=3D"m_-6634967038594159325gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmai=
l_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr">Mat=C3=ADas Alejo Garcia<br>@ematiu<br>Roads?=
 Where we&#39;re going, we don&#39;t need roads!</div></div>
</div>
</div></div><br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
bitcoin-dev mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org">bitcoin-dev@lists.=
<wbr>linuxfoundation.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev" =
rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.linuxfoundation.<wbr>org=
/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-<wbr>dev</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div>

--001a113ab7a0de2aff0562456d93--