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From: Jeremy Rubin <jeremy.l.rubin@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2022 19:42:02 -0800
Message-ID: <CAD5xwhjj3JAXwnrgVe_7RKx0AVDDy4X-L9oOnwhswXAQFoJ7Bw@mail.gmail.com>
To: "David A. Harding" <dave@dtrt.org>
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Cc: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Recursive covenant opposition,
 or the absence thereof,
 was Re:  TXHASH + CHECKSIGFROMSTACKVERIFY in lieu of CTV and ANYPREVOUT
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I don't have a specific response to share at this moment, but I may make
one later.

But for the sake of elevating the discourse, I'd encourage people
responding this to read through
https://rubin.io/bitcoin/2021/12/04/advent-7/ as I think it has some
helpful terminology and categorizations.

I bring this up because I think that recursion is often given as a
shorthand for "powerful" because the types of operations that support
recursion typically also introduce open ended covenants, unless they are
designed specially not to. As a trivial example a covenant that makes a
coin spendable from itself to itself entirely with no authorization is
recursive but fully enumerated in a sense and not particularly interesting
or useful.

Therefore when responding you might be careful to distinguish if it is just
recursion which you take issue with or open ended or some combination of
properties which severally might be acceptable.

TL;DR there are different properties people might care about that get
lumped in with recursion, it's good to be explicit if it is a recursion
issue or something else.

Cheers,

Jeremy


On Thu, Feb 10, 2022, 4:55 PM David A. Harding <dave@dtrt.org> wrote:

> On Mon, Feb 07, 2022 at 08:34:30PM -0800, Jeremy Rubin via bitcoin-dev
> wrote:
> > Whether [recursive covenants] is an issue or not precluding this sort
> > of design or not, I defer to others.
>
> For reference, I believe the last time the merits of allowing recursive
> covenants was discussed at length on this list[1], not a single person
> replied to say that they were opposed to the idea.
>
> I would like to suggest that anyone opposed to recursive covenants speak
> for themselves (if any intelligent such people exist).  Citing the risk
> of recursive covenants without presenting a credible argument for the
> source of that risk feels to me like (at best) stop energy[2] and (at
> worst) FUD.
>
> -Dave
>
> [1]
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2021-July/019203.html
> [2]
> http://radio-weblogs.com/0107584/stories/2002/05/05/stopEnergyByDaveWiner.html
>     (thanks to AJ who told me about stop energy one time when I was
>     producing it)
>
>

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<div dir=3D"auto">I don&#39;t have a specific response to share at this mom=
ent, but I may make one later.<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"=
>But for the sake of elevating the discourse, I&#39;d encourage people resp=
onding this to read through=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://rubin.io/bitcoin/2021/1=
2/04/advent-7/">https://rubin.io/bitcoin/2021/12/04/advent-7/</a> as I thin=
k it has some helpful terminology and categorizations.</div><div dir=3D"aut=
o"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">I bring this up because I think that recursi=
on is often given as a shorthand for &quot;powerful&quot; because the types=
 of operations that support recursion typically also introduce open ended c=
ovenants, unless they are designed specially not to. As a trivial example a=
 covenant that makes a coin spendable from itself to itself entirely with n=
o authorization is recursive but fully enumerated in a sense and not partic=
ularly interesting or useful.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"=
auto">Therefore when responding you might be careful to distinguish if it i=
s just recursion which you take issue with or open ended or some combinatio=
n of properties which severally might be acceptable.</div><div dir=3D"auto"=
><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">TL;DR there are different properties people mi=
ght care about that get lumped in with recursion, it&#39;s good to be expli=
cit if it is a recursion issue or something else.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><b=
r></div><div dir=3D"auto">Cheers,</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=
=3D"auto">Jeremy</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div></div><br><div class=3D"g=
mail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu, Feb 10, 2022, 4:5=
5 PM David A. Harding &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dave@dtrt.org">dave@dtrt.org</a=
>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0=
 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">On Mon, Feb 07, 2022 a=
t 08:34:30PM -0800, Jeremy Rubin via bitcoin-dev wrote:<br>
&gt; Whether [recursive covenants] is an issue or not precluding this sort<=
br>
&gt; of design or not, I defer to others.<br>
<br>
For reference, I believe the last time the merits of allowing recursive<br>
covenants was discussed at length on this list[1], not a single person<br>
replied to say that they were opposed to the idea.<br>
<br>
I would like to suggest that anyone opposed to recursive covenants speak<br=
>
for themselves (if any intelligent such people exist).=C2=A0 Citing the ris=
k<br>
of recursive covenants without presenting a credible argument for the<br>
source of that risk feels to me like (at best) stop energy[2] and (at<br>
worst) FUD.<br>
<br>
-Dave<br>
<br>
[1] <a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2021=
-July/019203.html" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://=
lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2021-July/019203.html</a><b=
r>
[2] <a href=3D"http://radio-weblogs.com/0107584/stories/2002/05/05/stopEner=
gyByDaveWiner.html" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http://=
radio-weblogs.com/0107584/stories/2002/05/05/stopEnergyByDaveWiner.html</a>=
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 (thanks to AJ who told me about stop energy one time when I w=
as<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 producing it)<br>
<br>
</blockquote></div>

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