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Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2014 11:50:55 -0400
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Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] "bits": Unit of account
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I've been a staunch supporter of "microbitcoin" and would like to do
anything I can to make sure that we jump directly to it if we're going
to promote changing the default units. And I'm happy to integrate it
into Armory as a default (with appropriate explanations and
settings/options). I'm not so convinced about the "bits" name though --
I do like it, but I do also think that word is too overloaded. Though,
I think we could get away with it.
(Sadly, I still use "microbes" occasionally (as in *microb*itcoin) when
I'm talking to coworkers, because it slips off the tongue and is
actually a good combination of brevity and self-explanatory -- it just
doesn't instill the right visuals...)
We started integrating alternative units into Armory. But, of course,
there were a few more loose ends than I expected, which will require
some work. We want to put it in but not necessarily change the default
right away. I'd /prefer/ we get some commitments from some other wallet
developers, so we can make a unified push for it. I'm happy to lead
that and make it default as long as I'm not the only one in the world
doing it.
-Alan
On 04/20/2014 11:05 AM, Tamas Blummer wrote:
> Here is an earlier reference to bits:
>
> https://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development%40lists.sourceforge.net/msg04248.html
> <https://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net/msg04248.html>
>
> I forgot that Alan Reiner was also supporting a unit equals to bits :
>
> https://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development%40lists.sourceforge.net/msg04264.html
> <https://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net/msg04264.html>
>
> and here the earlier going back to March 2013 and a poll at that time
> pushing for XBT being 1 bit
>
> https://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development%40lists.sourceforge.net/msg04256.html
> <https://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net/msg04256.html>
>
> Regards,
>
> Tamas Blummer
> http://bitsofproof.com
>
> On 20.04.2014, at 16:53, Pieter Wuille <pieter.wuille@gmail.com
> <mailto:pieter.wuille@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>> I told him specifically to bring it here (on a pull request for
>> Bitcoin Core), as there is no point in making such convention changes
>> to just one client.
>>
>> I wasn't aware of any discussion about the "bits" proposal here before.
>>
>> On Sun, Apr 20, 2014 at 4:28 PM, Tamas Blummer <tamas@bitsofproof.com
>> <mailto:tamas@bitsofproof.com>> wrote:
>>> People on this list are mostly engineers who have no problem dealing
>>> with
>>> magnitudes and have rather limited empathy for people who have a problem
>>> with them.
>>> They also tend to think, that because they invented money 2.0 they
>>> would not
>>> need to care of finance's or people's current customs.
>>>
>>> The importance of their decisions in these questions will fade as people
>>> already use wallets other than the core.
>>>
>>> Bring this particular discussion elsewhere, to the wallet developer.
>>>
>>> BTW the topic was discussed here several times, you have my support
>>> and Jeff
>>> Garzik's.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Tamas Blummer
>>> http://bitsofproof.com
>>>
>>> On 20.04.2014, at 15:15, Rob Golding <rob.golding@astutium.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> The average person is not going to be confident that the prefix they
>>> are using is the correct one,
>>>
>>>
>>> The use of any 'prefix' is one of choice and entirely unnecessary,
>>> and there
>>> are already established 'divisions' in u/mBTC for those that feel
>>> they need
>>> to use such things.
>>>
>>> people WILL send 1000x more or less than
>>> intended if we go down this road,
>>>
>>>
>>> Exceptionally unlikely - I deal every day with currencies with 0, 2
>>> and 3
>>> dp's in amount ranging from 'under 1 whole unit' to tens of
>>> thousands - Not
>>> once in 20 years has anyone ever 'sent' more or less than intended - oh,
>>> they've 'intended' to underpay just fine, but never *unintended*.
>>>
>>> I propose that users are offered a preference to denominate the
>>> Bitcoin currency in a unit called a bit. Where one bitcoin (BTC)
>>> equals one million bits (bits) and one bit equals 100 satoshis.
>>>
>>>
>>> I propose that for people unable to understand what a bitcoin is,
>>> they can
>>> just use satoshi's and drop this entire proposal.
>>>
>>> Rob
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book
>>> "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases and
>>> their
>>> applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field,
>>> this first edition is now available. Download your free book today!
>>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Bitcoin-development mailing list
>>> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book
>>> "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases and
>>> their
>>> applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field,
>>> this first edition is now available. Download your free book today!
>>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Bitcoin-development mailing list
>>> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>>>
>>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book
> "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their
> applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field,
> this first edition is now available. Download your free book today!
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
--------------010900080400060807050103
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<html>
<head>
<meta content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1"
http-equiv="Content-Type">
</head>
<body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
I've been a staunch supporter of "microbitcoin" and would like to do
anything I can to make sure that we jump directly to it if we're
going to promote changing the default units. And I'm happy to
integrate it into Armory as a default (with appropriate explanations
and settings/options). I'm not so convinced about the "bits" name
though -- I do like it, but I do also think that word is too
overloaded. Though, I think we could get away with it. <br>
<br>
(Sadly, I still use "microbes" occasionally (as in <b>microb</b>itcoin)
when I'm talking to coworkers, because it slips off the tongue and
is actually a good combination of brevity and self-explanatory -- it
just doesn't instill the right visuals...)<br>
<br>
We started integrating alternative units into Armory. But, of
course, there were a few more loose ends than I expected, which will
require some work. We want to put it in but not necessarily change
the default right away. I'd <i>prefer</i> we get some commitments
from some other wallet developers, so we can make a unified push for
it. I'm happy to lead that and make it default as long as I'm not
the only one in the world doing it.<br>
<br>
-Alan<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 04/20/2014 11:05 AM, Tamas Blummer
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:DFFB1B2C-F10B-4CF7-9D01-F6A27F9FA229@bitsofproof.com"
type="cite">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
charset=ISO-8859-1">
<div>Here is an earlier reference to bits:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net/msg04248.html">https://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development%40lists.sourceforge.net/msg04248.html</a></div>
<div apple-content-edited="true"><br>
</div>
<div apple-content-edited="true">I forgot that Alan Reiner was
also supporting a unit equals to bits :</div>
<div apple-content-edited="true">
<div apple-content-edited="true"><br>
</div>
<div apple-content-edited="true"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net/msg04264.html">https://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development%40lists.sourceforge.net/msg04264.html</a></div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<div apple-content-edited="true">and here the earlier going back
to March 2013 and a poll at that time pushing for XBT being 1
bit</div>
<div apple-content-edited="true"><br>
</div>
<div apple-content-edited="true"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net/msg04256.html">https://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development%40lists.sourceforge.net/msg04256.html</a></div>
<div apple-content-edited="true"><br>
</div>
<div apple-content-edited="true"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);
font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing:
normal; line-height: normal; text-align: -webkit-auto;
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; orphans: 2;
widows: 2; float: none; display: inline !important;">Regards,</span><br
style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size:
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight:
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal;
text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform:
none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; orphans: 2; widows: 2;">
<br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica;
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal;
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height:
normal; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; orphans: 2; widows: 2;">
<span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica;
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal;
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height:
normal; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; orphans: 2; widows: 2; float:
none; display: inline !important;">Tamas Blummer</span><span
style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size:
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight:
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans:
auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform:
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><br style="color: rgb(0, 0,
0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style:
normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-align:
-webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; orphans: 2; widows: 2;">
<span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica;
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal;
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height:
normal; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing:
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; orphans: 2; widows: 2;
float: none; display: inline !important;"><a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://bitsofproof.com">http://bitsofproof.com</a></span>
</span></div>
<br>
<div>
<div>On 20.04.2014, at 16:53, Pieter Wuille <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:pieter.wuille@gmail.com">pieter.wuille@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<blockquote type="cite">I told him specifically to bring it here
(on a pull request for<br>
Bitcoin Core), as there is no point in making such convention
changes<br>
to just one client.<br>
<br>
I wasn't aware of any discussion about the "bits" proposal
here before.<br>
<br>
On Sun, Apr 20, 2014 at 4:28 PM, Tamas Blummer <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:tamas@bitsofproof.com">tamas@bitsofproof.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote type="cite">People on this list are mostly
engineers who have no problem dealing with<br>
magnitudes and have rather limited empathy for people who
have a problem<br>
with them.<br>
They also tend to think, that because they invented money
2.0 they would not<br>
need to care of finance's or people's current customs.<br>
<br>
The importance of their decisions in these questions will
fade as people<br>
already use wallets other than the core.<br>
<br>
Bring this particular discussion elsewhere, to the wallet
developer.<br>
<br>
BTW the topic was discussed here several times, you have my
support and Jeff<br>
Garzik's.<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
Tamas Blummer<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://bitsofproof.com">http://bitsofproof.com</a><br>
<br>
On 20.04.2014, at 15:15, Rob Golding
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:rob.golding@astutium.com"><rob.golding@astutium.com></a> wrote:<br>
<br>
The average person is not going to be confident that the
prefix they<br>
are using is the correct one,<br>
<br>
<br>
The use of any 'prefix' is one of choice and entirely
unnecessary, and there<br>
are already established 'divisions' in u/mBTC for those that
feel they need<br>
to use such things.<br>
<br>
people WILL send 1000x more or less than<br>
intended if we go down this road,<br>
<br>
<br>
Exceptionally unlikely - I deal every day with currencies
with 0, 2 and 3<br>
dp's in amount ranging from 'under 1 whole unit' to tens of
thousands - Not<br>
once in 20 years has anyone ever 'sent' more or less than
intended - oh,<br>
they've 'intended' to underpay just fine, but never
*unintended*.<br>
<br>
I propose that users are offered a preference to denominate
the<br>
Bitcoin currency in a unit called a bit. Where one bitcoin
(BTC)<br>
equals one million bits (bits) and one bit equals 100
satoshis.<br>
<br>
<br>
I propose that for people unable to understand what a
bitcoin is, they can<br>
just use satoshi's and drop this entire proposal.<br>
<br>
Rob<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book<br>
"Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph
databases and their<br>
applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the
field,<br>
this first edition is now available. Download your free book
today!<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech">http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech</a><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Bitcoin-development mailing list<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net">Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net</a><br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
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Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book<br>
"Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph
databases and their<br>
applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the
field,<br>
this first edition is now available. Download your free book
today!<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech">http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech</a><br>
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<pre wrap="">------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book
"Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their
applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field,
this first edition is now available. Download your free book today!
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech">http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech</a></pre>
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