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From: Eric Voskuil <eric@voskuil.org>
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Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2021 12:53:02 -0800
To: Lonero Foundation <loneroassociation@gmail.com>,
 Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
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Cc: Devrandom <c1.devrandom@niftybox.net>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] BIP Proposal: Consensus (hard fork) PoST
	Datastore for Energy Efficient Mining
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=EF=BB=BFHi Andrew,

Do you mean that you can reduce the cost of executing the cryptography at a c=
omparable level of security? If so this will only have the effect of increas=
ing the amount of it that is required to consume the same cost.

https://github.com/libbitcoin/libbitcoin-system/wiki/Efficiency-Paradox

You mentioned a staking hybrid in your original post.

https://github.com/libbitcoin/libbitcoin-system/wiki/Hybrid-Mining-Fallacy

This would be a change to dynamics - the economic forces at work. Staking is=
 not censorship resistant

https://github.com/libbitcoin/libbitcoin-system/wiki/Proof-of-Stake-Fallacy

and is therefore what I refer to as cryptodynamically insecure.

https://github.com/libbitcoin/libbitcoin-system/wiki/Cryptodynamic-Principle=
s

As such it wouldn=E2=80=99t likely be considered as a contribution to Bitcoi=
n. It might of course be useful in some other context.

https://github.com/libbitcoin/libbitcoin-system/wiki/Shitcoin-Definition

But BIPs are proposals aimed at Bitcoin improvement.

https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0001.mediawiki#What_is_a_BIP=


Non-staking attempts to improve energy efficiency are either proof of work i=
n disguise, such as proof of memory:

https://github.com/libbitcoin/libbitcoin-system/wiki/Proof-of-Memory-Fallacy=


or attempts to repurpose =E2=80=9Cwasteful=E2=80=9D computing, such as by fi=
nding prime numbers, which does not imply a reduction in dedicated energy co=
nsumption.

https://github.com/libbitcoin/libbitcoin-system/wiki/Dedicated-Cost-Principl=
e

Finally, waste and renewable energy approaches at =E2=80=9Ccarbon=E2=80=9D (=
vs energy) reduction must still consume the same in cost as the reward. In o=
ther words, the apparent benefit represents a temporary market shift, with a=
dvantage to first movers. The market will still consume what it consumes. If=
 the hashing energy was free all reward consumption would shift to operation=
s.

https://github.com/libbitcoin/libbitcoin-system/wiki/Byproduct-Mining-Fallac=
y

The motivation behind these attempts is naively understandable, but based on=
 a false premise.

https://github.com/libbitcoin/libbitcoin-system/wiki/Energy-Waste-Fallacy

The one thing that reduces Bitcoin energy consumption is an increase in ener=
gy cost relative to block reward.

https://github.com/libbitcoin/libbitcoin-system/wiki/Energy-Exhaustion-Falla=
cy

e

> On Mar 5, 2021, at 07:30, Lonero Foundation via bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev@l=
ists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
> =EF=BB=BF
> Hi, this isn't about the energy efficient argument in regards to renewable=
s or mining devices but a better cryptography layer to get the most out of y=
our hashing for validation. I do understand the arbitrariness of it, but do w=
ant to still propose a document. Do I use the Media Wiki format on GitHub an=
d just attach it as my proposal?
>=20
> Best regards, Andrew
>=20
> On Fri, Mar 5, 2021, 10:07 AM Devrandom <c1.devrandom@niftybox.net> wrote:=

>> Hi Ryan and Andrew,
>>=20
>> On Fri, Mar 5, 2021 at 5:42 AM Ryan Grant via bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev@li=
sts.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>>>=20
>>>   https://www.truthcoin.info/blog/pow-cheapest/
>>>     "Nothing is Cheaper than Proof of Work"
>>>     on | 04 Aug 2015
>>=20
>> Just to belabor this a bit, the paper demonstrates that the mining market=
 will tend to expend resources equivalent to miner reward.  It does not prov=
e that mining work has to expend *energy* as a primary cost.
>>=20
>> Some might argue that energy expenditure has negative externalities and t=
hat we should move to other resources.  I would argue that the negative exte=
rnalities will go away soon because of the move to renewables, so the point i=
s likely moot.=20
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div dir=3D"ltr">=EF=BB=BFHi Andrew,<div di=
r=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">Do you mean that you c=
an reduce the cost of executing the cryptography at a comparable level of se=
curity? If so this will only have the effect of increasing the amount of it t=
hat is required to consume the same cost.</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><d=
iv dir=3D"ltr"><a href=3D"https://github.com/libbitcoin/libbitcoin-system/wi=
ki/Efficiency-Paradox">https://github.com/libbitcoin/libbitcoin-system/wiki/=
Efficiency-Paradox</a></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">You m=
entioned a staking hybrid in your original post.</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><=
/div><div dir=3D"ltr"><a href=3D"https://github.com/libbitcoin/libbitcoin-sy=
stem/wiki/Hybrid-Mining-Fallacy">https://github.com/libbitcoin/libbitcoin-sy=
stem/wiki/Hybrid-Mining-Fallacy</a></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">Thi=
s would be a change to dynamics - the economic forces at work. Staking is no=
t censorship resistant</span></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div dir=3D"lt=
r"><a href=3D"https://github.com/libbitcoin/libbitcoin-system/wiki/Proof-of-=
Stake-Fallacy">https://github.com/libbitcoin/libbitcoin-system/wiki/Proof-of=
-Stake-Fallacy</a></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">and is t=
herefore what I refer to as cryptodynamically insecure.</div><div dir=3D"ltr=
"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><a href=3D"https://github.com/libbitcoin/libbit=
coin-system/wiki/Cryptodynamic-Principles">https://github.com/libbitcoin/lib=
bitcoin-system/wiki/Cryptodynamic-Principles</a></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><=
/div><div dir=3D"ltr"></div><div dir=3D"ltr">As such it wouldn=E2=80=99t lik=
ely be considered as a contribution to Bitcoin. It might of course be useful=
 in some other context.</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><a h=
ref=3D"https://github.com/libbitcoin/libbitcoin-system/wiki/Shitcoin-Definit=
ion">https://github.com/libbitcoin/libbitcoin-system/wiki/Shitcoin-Definitio=
n</a></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">But BIPs are proposal=
s aimed at Bitcoin improvement.</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div dir=3D"=
ltr"><a href=3D"https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0001.mediawi=
ki#What_is_a_BIP">https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0001.media=
wiki#What_is_a_BIP</a></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">Non-=
staking attempts to improve energy efficiency are either proof of work in di=
sguise, such as proof of memory:</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div dir=3D=
"ltr"><a href=3D"https://github.com/libbitcoin/libbitcoin-system/wiki/Proof-=
of-Memory-Fallacy">https://github.com/libbitcoin/libbitcoin-system/wiki/Proo=
f-of-Memory-Fallacy</a></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">or a=
ttempts to repurpose =E2=80=9Cwasteful=E2=80=9D computing, such as by findin=
g prime numbers, which<span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0=
, 0, 0);">&nbsp;does not imply a reduction in dedicated energy consumption.<=
/span></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><a href=3D"https://g=
ithub.com/libbitcoin/libbitcoin-system/wiki/Dedicated-Cost-Principle">https:=
//github.com/libbitcoin/libbitcoin-system/wiki/Dedicated-Cost-Principle</a><=
/div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">Finally, waste and renewabl=
e energy approaches at =E2=80=9Ccarbon=E2=80=9D (vs energy) reduction must s=
till consume the same in cost as the reward. In other words, the apparent be=
nefit represents a temporary market shift, with advantage to first movers. T=
he market will still consume what it consumes. If the hashing energy was fre=
e all reward consumption would shift to operations.</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><b=
r></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><a href=3D"https://github.com/libbitcoin/libbitcoin=
-system/wiki/Byproduct-Mining-Fallacy">https://github.com/libbitcoin/libbitc=
oin-system/wiki/Byproduct-Mining-Fallacy</a></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div=
><div dir=3D"ltr">The motivation behind these attempts is naively understand=
able, but based on a false premise.</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><a href=3D"https://github.com/libbitcoin/libbitcoin-system/wiki/Ene=
rgy-Waste-Fallacy">https://github.com/libbitcoin/libbitcoin-system/wiki/Ener=
gy-Waste-Fallacy</a></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">The on=
e thing that reduces Bitcoin energy consumption is an increase in energy cos=
t relative to block reward.</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr"=
><a href=3D"https://github.com/libbitcoin/libbitcoin-system/wiki/Energy-Exha=
ustion-Fallacy">https://github.com/libbitcoin/libbitcoin-system/wiki/Energy-=
Exhaustion-Fallacy</a></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">e</d=
iv><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><blockquote type=3D"cite">On Mar 5, 2021, at 07:30, L=
onero Foundation via bitcoin-dev &lt;bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org&g=
t; wrote:<br><br></blockquote></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"lt=
r">=EF=BB=BF<div dir=3D"auto">Hi, this isn't about the energy efficient argu=
ment in regards to renewables or mining devices but a better cryptography la=
yer to get the most out of your hashing for validation. I do understand the a=
rbitrariness of it, but do want to still propose a document. Do I use the Me=
dia Wiki format on GitHub and just attach it as my proposal?<div dir=3D"auto=
"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Best regards, Andrew</div></div><br><div class=
=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, Mar 5, 2021, 1=
0:07 AM Devrandom &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:c1.devrandom@niftybox.net">c1.devran=
dom@niftybox.net</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" s=
tyle=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div d=
ir=3D"auto"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Hi Ryan and Andrew,<br></div><br><div clas=
s=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, Mar 5, 2021 a=
t 5:42 AM Ryan Grant via bitcoin-dev &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists=
.linuxfoundation.org" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">bitcoi=
n-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D=
"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(20=
4,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br>
&nbsp; <a href=3D"https://www.truthcoin.info/blog/pow-cheapest/" rel=3D"nore=
ferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.truthcoin.info/b=
log/pow-cheapest/</a><br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; "Nothing is Cheaper than Proof of Work"<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; on | 04 Aug 2015<br>
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Just to belabor this a bit, the paper d=
emonstrates that the mining market will tend to expend resources equivalent t=
o miner reward.&nbsp; It does not prove that mining work has to expend *ener=
gy* as a primary cost.<br></div><div><br></div><div>Some might argue that en=
ergy expenditure has negative externalities and that we should move to other=
 resources.&nbsp; I would argue that the negative externalities will go away=
 soon because of the move to renewables, so the point is likely  moot.&nbsp;=
</div><div><br></div></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div>
<span>_______________________________________________</span><br><span>bitcoi=
n-dev mailing list</span><br><span>bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</sp=
an><br><span>https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev<=
/span><br></div></blockquote></div></div></body></html>=

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