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Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2015 13:59:26 -0500
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From: Michael Naber <mickeybob@gmail.com>
To: Bryan Bishop <kanzure@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Fees and the block-finding process
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Lightning *depends* on global consensus in order to function. You can't use
it without a global consensus network at all. So given that there is
absolutely a place for a global consensus network, we need to decide
whether the cost to participate in that global consensus will be limited
above or below the capability of technology. In a world where anybody can
step up and fork the code, it's going to be hard for anyone to artificially
set the price of participating in global consensus at a rate higher than
what technology can deliver...
On Tue, Aug 11, 2015 at 1:51 PM, Bryan Bishop <kanzure@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Aug 11, 2015 at 1:46 PM, Michael Naber via bitcoin-dev
> <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
> > Note that lightning / hub and spoke do not meet requirements for users
> > wishing to participate in global consensus, because they are not global
> > consensus networks, since all participating nodes are not aware of all
> > transactions.
>
> You don't need consensus on the lightning network because you are
> using bitcoin consensus anyway. Commitment transactions are deep
> enough in the blockchain history that removing that transaction from
> the history is impractical. The remaining guarantees are ensured by
> the properties of the scripts in the transaction. You don't need to
> see all the transactions, but you do need to look at the transactions
> you are given and draw conclusions based on the details to see whether
> their commitments are valid or the setup wasn't broken.
>
> - Bryan
> http://heybryan.org/
> 1 512 203 0507
>
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<div dir=3D"ltr">Lightning *depends* on global consensus in order to functi=
on. You can't use it without a global consensus network at all. So give=
n that there is absolutely a place for a global consensus network, we need =
to decide whether the cost to participate in that global consensus will be =
limited above or below the capability of technology. In a world where anybo=
dy can step up and fork the code, it's going to be hard for anyone to a=
rtificially set the price of participating in global consensus at a rate hi=
gher than what technology can deliver...</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><b=
r><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Aug 11, 2015 at 1:51 PM, Bryan Bishop =
<span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:kanzure@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank=
">kanzure@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quo=
te" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"=
><span class=3D"">On Tue, Aug 11, 2015 at 1:46 PM, Michael Naber via bitcoi=
n-dev<br>
<<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org">bitcoin-dev@li=
sts.linuxfoundation.org</a>> wrote:<br>
> Note that lightning / hub and spoke do not meet requirements for users=
<br>
> wishing to participate in global consensus, because they are not globa=
l<br>
> consensus networks, since all participating nodes are not aware of all=
<br>
> transactions.<br>
<br>
</span>You don't need consensus on the lightning network because you ar=
e<br>
using bitcoin consensus anyway. Commitment transactions are deep<br>
enough in the blockchain history that removing that transaction from<br>
the history is impractical. The remaining guarantees are ensured by<br>
the properties of the scripts in the transaction. You don't need to<br>
see all the transactions, but you do need to look at the transactions<br>
you are given and draw conclusions based on the details to see whether<br>
their commitments are valid or the setup wasn't broken.<br>
<div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5"><br>
- Bryan<br>
<a href=3D"http://heybryan.org/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http:=
//heybryan.org/</a><br>
<a href=3D"tel:1%20512%20203%200507" value=3D"+15122030507">1 512 203 0507<=
/a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>
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