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From: Saint Wenhao <saintwenhao@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2025 15:33:53 +0200
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Message-ID: <CACgYNOJuWPDH7n2UMwYOhOZ=uxD6_taagyi23iTKEw_2seGyiw@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] Unbreaking testnet4
To: Sjors Provoost <sjors@sprovoost.nl>
Cc: Bitcoin Development Mailing List <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>, Jameson Lopp <jameson.lopp@gmail.com>
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> because it breaks the assumption that coins don't expire

Technically, they can expire, if the client can see some chain
reorganization. And it is something to think about: if the consensus will
force miners to go back to some previous block height, and produce a
stronger, alternative chain, then such testnet would automatically perform
full chain reorganization, wired into its consensus rules. And then, coins
would expire in a backward-compatible way, while also battle testing full
chain reorganization (which may need testing anyway, for other reasons,
like checkpoints).

> This will eventually overflow, but that seems fine for a testnet.

As far as I remember, there were some additional limits, introduced after
Value Overflow Incident, for example that a single UTXO cannot hold more
than 21 million coins:
https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/consensus/tx_check.cpp#L=
29

```
    // Check for negative or overflow output values (see CVE-2010-5139)
    CAmount nValueOut =3D 0;
    for (const auto& txout : tx.vout)
    {
        if (txout.nValue < 0)
            return state.Invalid(TxValidationResult::TX_CONSENSUS,
"bad-txns-vout-negative");
        if (txout.nValue > MAX_MONEY)
            return state.Invalid(TxValidationResult::TX_CONSENSUS,
"bad-txns-vout-toolarge");
        nValueOut +=3D txout.nValue;
        if (!MoneyRange(nValueOut))
            return state.Invalid(TxValidationResult::TX_CONSENSUS,
"bad-txns-txouttotal-toolarge");
    }
```

Which means that in practice, instead of seeing huge or overflowed amounts
in UTXOs, we will probably see a lot of repeated entries in the UTXO set,
holding MAX_MONEY each.

pon., 28 kwi 2025 o 14:47 Sjors Provoost <sjors@sprovoost.nl> napisa=C5=82(=
a):

> Jameson Lopp wrote:
>
> > Encoding an "end of life date" into testnets is actually an interesting
> idea worth discussing. As far as I'm aware it's never been done before on
> any network.
>
> Keep in mind that testnet-specific code has to live right next to, even
> inside of, mainnet consensus code. We want the change to be as simple as
> possible, so as to not accidentally break mainnet.
>
> Unless and until coin expiration is something we're seriously considering
> for mainnet, we'd rather not implement it for testnet.
>
> This particular idea probably requires a lot of changes all over the plac=
e
> (consensus, mempool, wallet) because it breaks the assumption that coins
> don't expire.
>
>
> Something I've proposed in person a few times, is to double the coins
> every halving. In terms of code, it boils down to changing GetBlockSubsid=
y:
>
> CAmount nSubsidy =3D 50 * COIN;
> // Subsidy is cut in half every 210,000 blocks which will occur
> approximately every 4 years.
> If (consensusParams.inflation) {
>     // Except on testnet5
>     nSubsidy <<=3D halvings;
> } else {
>   nSubsidy >>=3D halvings;
> }
>
> This will eventually overflow, but that seems fine for a testnet. Along
> with the timewarp fix, the network might even grind to a halt in 2106, lo=
ng
> before we overflow 64 bit numbers.
>
> Rust Bitcoin [0] currently refuses amounts above 21 million BTC, but they
> would have many years to fix that.
>
>
> Strong inflation has been battle tested by governments around the world
> for millennia as a way to discourage saving.
>
> - Sjors
>
> [0] https://github.com/rust-bitcoin/rust-bitcoin/issues/4273

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<div dir=3D"ltr">&gt; because it breaks the assumption that coins don&#39;t=
 expire<br><br>Technically, they can expire, if the client can see some cha=
in reorganization. And it is something to think about: if the consensus wil=
l force miners to go back to some previous block height, and produce a stro=
nger, alternative chain, then such testnet would automatically perform full=
 chain reorganization, wired into its consensus rules. And then, coins woul=
d expire in a backward-compatible way, while also battle testing full chain=
 reorganization (which may need testing anyway, for other reasons, like che=
ckpoints).<br><br>&gt; This will eventually overflow, but that seems fine f=
or a testnet.<br><br>As far as I remember, there were some additional limit=
s, introduced after Value Overflow Incident, for example that a single UTXO=
 cannot hold more than 21 million coins: <a href=3D"https://github.com/bitc=
oin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/consensus/tx_check.cpp#L29">https://github.com/=
bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/consensus/tx_check.cpp#L29</a><br><br>```<b=
r>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 // Check for negative or overflow output values (see CVE-20=
10-5139)<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 CAmount nValueOut =3D 0;<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 for (co=
nst auto&amp; txout : tx.vout)<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 {<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 if (txout.nValue &lt; 0)<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 return state.Invalid(TxValidationResult::TX_CONSENSUS, &quot;bad-txns-v=
out-negative&quot;);<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 if (txout.nValue &gt; M=
AX_MONEY)<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 return state.Invalid=
(TxValidationResult::TX_CONSENSUS, &quot;bad-txns-vout-toolarge&quot;);<br>=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 nValueOut +=3D txout.nValue;<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 if (!MoneyRange(nValueOut))<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 return state.Invalid(TxValidationResult::TX_CONSENSUS, &quot;=
bad-txns-txouttotal-toolarge&quot;);<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 }<br>```<br><br>Which=
 means that in practice, instead of seeing huge or overflowed amounts in UT=
XOs, we will probably see a lot of repeated entries in the UTXO set, holdin=
g MAX_MONEY each.</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"=
><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">pon., 28 kwi 2025 o 14:47=C2=A0Sjors=
 Provoost &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sjors@sprovoost.nl">sjors@sprovoost.nl</a>&=
gt; napisa=C5=82(a):<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"ma=
rgin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:=
1ex">Jameson Lopp wrote:<br>
<br>
&gt; Encoding an &quot;end of life date&quot; into testnets is actually an =
interesting idea worth discussing. As far as I&#39;m aware it&#39;s never b=
een done before on any network. <br>
<br>
Keep in mind that testnet-specific code has to live right next to, even ins=
ide of, mainnet consensus code. We want the change to be as simple as possi=
ble, so as to not accidentally break mainnet.<br>
<br>
Unless and until coin expiration is something we&#39;re seriously consideri=
ng for mainnet, we&#39;d rather not implement it for testnet.<br>
<br>
This particular idea probably requires a lot of changes all over the place =
(consensus, mempool, wallet) because it breaks the assumption that coins do=
n&#39;t expire.<br>
<br>
<br>
Something I&#39;ve proposed in person a few times, is to double the coins e=
very halving. In terms of code, it boils down to changing GetBlockSubsidy:<=
br>
<br>
CAmount nSubsidy =3D 50 * COIN;<br>
// Subsidy is cut in half every 210,000 blocks which will occur approximate=
ly every 4 years.<br>
If (consensusParams.inflation) {<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 // Except on testnet5<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 nSubsidy &lt;&lt;=3D halvings;<br>
} else {<br>
=C2=A0 nSubsidy &gt;&gt;=3D halvings;<br>
}<br>
<br>
This will eventually overflow, but that seems fine for a testnet. Along wit=
h the timewarp fix, the network might even grind to a halt in 2106, long be=
fore we overflow 64 bit numbers.<br>
<br>
Rust Bitcoin [0] currently refuses amounts above 21 million BTC, but they w=
ould have many years to fix that.<br>
<br>
<br>
Strong inflation has been battle tested by governments around the world for=
 millennia as a way to discourage saving.<br>
<br>
- Sjors<br>
<br>
[0] <a href=3D"https://github.com/rust-bitcoin/rust-bitcoin/issues/4273" re=
l=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://github.com/rust-bitcoin/rust-bit=
coin/issues/4273</a></blockquote></div>

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