path: root/c5/265ced0358291b1976635237b5e26808627765

Delivery-date: Mon, 09 Jun 2025 03:54:53 -0700
Received: from mail-oo1-f56.google.com ([209.85.161.56])
	by mail.fairlystable.org with esmtps  (TLS1.3) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256
	(Exim 4.94.2)
	(envelope-from <bitcoindev+bncBAABB472TLBAMGQED4A7I5Q@googlegroups.com>)
	id 1uOa9U-0005Qt-JL
	for bitcoindev@gnusha.org; Mon, 09 Jun 2025 03:54:53 -0700
Received: by mail-oo1-f56.google.com with SMTP id 006d021491bc7-6045ff1afc6sf1503172eaf.0
        for <bitcoindev@gnusha.org>; Mon, 09 Jun 2025 03:54:52 -0700 (PDT)
ARC-Seal: i=2; a=rsa-sha256; t=1749466487; cv=pass;
        d=google.com; s=arc-20240605;
        b=Sh+a3bhpmjYn0VTmy4zsxTtUsnnV84gApLUiAy/icIgU8FPr8W8AA1s34OcBn6nlwv
         zJE47b3UrkBhSBHdZY34xsmfEu45TTp28yNj4It+JfElH+y3ZojwKuHtUgIE1YAsexvs
         QbtcmFQF0/hT9vMB75hstXCF25ubYqXHFn/+J0yHx5zgDsTDpNQUhBruIAzlkG6fms3r
         KH+hIbsIuD0SCFzOVQPx3cd1AxTrudan5JEFC66s7ZZ7lJmC0RxmqGYobWsX7qB5DOii
         cv9jsi6OqMZctlAkdcrhtGcFRP1YwLbA4apq0MQg1E7+7lf2V+YcP3ZZwieFKbV2fvhb
         u+eg==
ARC-Message-Signature: i=2; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=arc-20240605;
        h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post
         :list-id:mailing-list:precedence:references:to:cc:in-reply-to:date
         :subject:mime-version:message-id:from:feedback-id:sender
         :dkim-signature;
        bh=F79rkm5IyxxJqEW62tn0y/7fDdCtVFG2oH92zgKDOLg=;
        fh=EEb3hwourqa6s8zytM6XFOLbPBlVbL3ymfjs/Gzhafs=;
        b=E8F+7aJerxj6H83J+U9AlyN7/4AtUWKrS06zAL7d3ief77qpbfdHpNZ+ho4BMI++u5
         DzuWw1Ip0stIKz87gVlx/7ZwuHvrp67JlJo+JiHiGxt/q4OFzk65ipM+SUfq7ftq8E6/
         cW3SQ8/bT6QezFJxQdk3/q2YM7C9MMT9ZEOJxJ4LXGaQoujVOibIeIIpA9zb8uqhLKuU
         1xe1vhKXVDB/p4LXUpCIoxip4KcsCg91FljOlIWWuy2cfYt60ichNmrl5Wvu8LpPou1l
         n3qdme+WN/acGGsN3nYF0FpaqdAohGveTVHKJShGCBIXZH6ZTbuUXYyMJnCdEHvaJz6N
         L9PQ==;
        darn=gnusha.org
ARC-Authentication-Results: i=2; gmr-mx.google.com;
       dkim=pass header.i=@sprovoost.nl header.s=fm2 header.b=teAOvr0e;
       dkim=pass header.i=@messagingengine.com header.s=fm1 header.b=ik2h6XTR;
       spf=pass (google.com: domain of sjors@sprovoost.nl designates 103.168.172.156 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=sjors@sprovoost.nl;
       dmarc=pass (p=NONE sp=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=sprovoost.nl
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=googlegroups.com; s=20230601; t=1749466487; x=1750071287; darn=gnusha.org;
        h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post
         :list-id:mailing-list:precedence:x-original-authentication-results
         :x-original-sender:references:to:cc:in-reply-to:date:subject
         :mime-version:message-id:from:feedback-id:sender:from:to:cc:subject
         :date:message-id:reply-to;
        bh=F79rkm5IyxxJqEW62tn0y/7fDdCtVFG2oH92zgKDOLg=;
        b=apygtxnXUmOfXhvrDDriX21oAQs/X1EjNRECQNSg30cWFhGmtlBtibbqlCQ9fUUhJh
         nXdxYJgAvxtoCEJi+qSkST+mfsTz4eaXyDN66LWi74z/eJqNDJTl/YxOVoHqa/LLsOyk
         mX0gCiZLWNTX7cvWCz/S5gQlbsd+k/Z03CedGPbsVEFonzfVChMBnV69Tlza1IHKQ5Aw
         j+di+PQcwZpUVfe1ySksoOV/E9iatr4cNFb2CYFFqs6d8GFd0jaVfI15m0+BmSzwpCgq
         0OqIkNOUEuefW3g/FSn5qu7PqMTg3CtlhJfzn26tXP47uVeDR10saPvsN+oH8ErSCNTP
         nCeA==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1749466487; x=1750071287;
        h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post
         :list-id:mailing-list:precedence:x-original-authentication-results
         :x-original-sender:references:to:cc:in-reply-to:date:subject
         :mime-version:message-id:from:feedback-id:x-beenthere
         :x-gm-message-state:sender:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id
         :reply-to;
        bh=F79rkm5IyxxJqEW62tn0y/7fDdCtVFG2oH92zgKDOLg=;
        b=sWhNe8adjUVze592u5CdhMghhLNzD63VrEY0M/4SBLv6U86IfLNjdBkF+UhtLWY3Vp
         WN7R50gnXxynK8SZg0n+0Li4csAEDAwB6JSRCanEmV1SevZW86mREV7ueGT23jw/RJj+
         KCAsvZ1cZlDg261ThYh/4DleWV0w1Ain+9X0Arrc79KF7sfEPaKgWwicQJLsWIAoTPA5
         75uFa/f8XEadovMBzwFpdjqg8IKSy8FpAPHHApmDE5gMUSCnJ0w2ABnuZMZ/z8q9jjaM
         Z6ULEPPDq/a88K1g9n5w7lgHkgE92ZoTn/HWXOwkrhhRY8iyyQTPXKlU2fgTHAdo1Yc9
         Kolw==
Sender: bitcoindev@googlegroups.com
X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=2; AJvYcCUvMVBYv/d/uLnNPIe+ofPCM5Ox+pHEXylCyCy3yyHLOQJPJdO10wms0oJCygz20AkSEZWAYlQLRPkM@gnusha.org
X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YxFQ+W9CUgLYVrH0r1PM+BwbNhdyRnIvgd49uzLNtigkgNdiW+k
	sDSvcz3sDjDhwt8edHGLoN0biLhwNslpKU6oiNwppXJ1RxKHv81sq3Ob
X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IGMwko449/PALAdm3MYBWe1QFTUDejL4BUYuwwdfeW9e5961gzcgam+0XesPkOPMSIdeNfBLA==
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6820:190f:b0:610:c3bf:ee3f with SMTP id 006d021491bc7-610c3c05130mr3803789eaf.7.1749466486723;
        Mon, 09 Jun 2025 03:54:46 -0700 (PDT)
X-BeenThere: bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; h=AZMbMZcm/4tBdS39IY7ZCAtNkeQ+AmjzZ3TpOaQatK7Oz3CUrA==
Received: by 2002:a4a:a507:0:b0:60f:195e:84fc with SMTP id 006d021491bc7-60f28336becls334108eaf.0.-pod-prod-04-us;
 Mon, 09 Jun 2025 03:54:43 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6808:1524:b0:3f6:a476:f7d3 with SMTP id 5614622812f47-409051d5343mr8770439b6e.9.1749466483610;
        Mon, 09 Jun 2025 03:54:43 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 2002:a05:6808:6482:b0:403:484c:9068 with SMTP id 5614622812f47-408f0257a78msb6e;
        Thu, 5 Jun 2025 06:29:32 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6830:290a:b0:72b:a196:5221 with SMTP id 46e09a7af769-73869d6a0ebmr5893245a34.8.1749130171459;
        Thu, 05 Jun 2025 06:29:31 -0700 (PDT)
ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; t=1749130171; cv=none;
        d=google.com; s=arc-20240605;
        b=A1gXzno97GPl5BOHG96qOQQOXYACz4H6DgdKjJppjd5LoXQtE43qkBztXELT+tMNmq
         k0rWcpnGFmSmJk1OZrYfO10fGEQetSO15vn5yu+/xSI8T4rR8xVtpop8P19O1SUaibcx
         zCEpHYyuXHvWXXfuwo8JBfX990SOtbNmfeeQrtNSrpEjdHZqmhHIvdtVu7pLyGBsFQD0
         oDtsgYgh3k5oKQf2rG0lntOKXB+92DFdAAtuTnDbUweb+Zyui6Q+qTXx2JVrMLbi0Dm2
         leSZ73HgTjIkCSDTk3apauLMTC0r0XVd3hKmxpgvWd6XcrxjevrNTGcPxNcZ/FlAM1do
         GR7Q==
ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=arc-20240605;
        h=references:to:cc:in-reply-to:date:subject:mime-version:message-id
         :from:feedback-id:dkim-signature:dkim-signature;
        bh=myNYk/Zh7Q1aIgM4wO1yAYmEYwqHKqSfdAGnK4nDmSE=;
        fh=5bKkyrGFQOxP/asIFkTXgRaOLsmJw/WymtuzDWrpHEQ=;
        b=ew1YODcLdZcd5orYbS1oqUBKP4UJJQkFh7VdsYwWyAOSQUw+QBa+MY+GBJarLD/e2J
         ih+FeBz/EJNPHrmzxLi3Eol0oOxP5fQUfwzj2bcY88LOtIQ8KXd/pyh3lSeD+upL5F0P
         ctKJd6is+0ufDAX+olH8E44bXVYZXsdLvRHHMLD3GyPJ3ZI/rF6oGZpgiDqxkJ4R9rrw
         sKC4+GDDJuOPfRdh59Pr1XCibeIPQkmwDY3yfk2AnFQcw9qCRo8yGJqY2XPQ0TY1ttS5
         Q4zGQ4YXYHHl1QZ3N5hH2vkYv83QT6DTYyQoJ9/uhwZNwyyZ8hcD0fXIFIx4E0+9Cdb/
         sskg==;
        dara=google.com
ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; gmr-mx.google.com;
       dkim=pass header.i=@sprovoost.nl header.s=fm2 header.b=teAOvr0e;
       dkim=pass header.i=@messagingengine.com header.s=fm1 header.b=ik2h6XTR;
       spf=pass (google.com: domain of sjors@sprovoost.nl designates 103.168.172.156 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=sjors@sprovoost.nl;
       dmarc=pass (p=NONE sp=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=sprovoost.nl
Received: from fhigh-a5-smtp.messagingengine.com (fhigh-a5-smtp.messagingengine.com. [103.168.172.156])
        by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 46e09a7af769-735af9a48d6si784619a34.3.2025.06.05.06.29.30
        for <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>
        (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256);
        Thu, 05 Jun 2025 06:29:30 -0700 (PDT)
Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of sjors@sprovoost.nl designates 103.168.172.156 as permitted sender) client-ip=103.168.172.156;
Received: from phl-compute-09.internal (phl-compute-09.phl.internal [10.202.2.49])
	by mailfhigh.phl.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 751611140143;
	Thu,  5 Jun 2025 09:29:30 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from phl-mailfrontend-01 ([10.202.2.162])
  by phl-compute-09.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 05 Jun 2025 09:29:30 -0400
X-ME-Sender: <xms:uZtBaHCAihd2Wm46XfA7jWhzFtJnjAljjaT_OGD4WA9BiG3qp4DKmw>
    <xme:uZtBaNhrk0RA3E6bq7WNyTVpDRWxuoqg0tYt670YFGoIk7r8jSXd8jqdT-yqjnv5N
    WNwQUQxYtvvXOtuHQ>
X-ME-Received: <xmr:uZtBaClTKViXIQKXA3fZV575_QYoiFVJgv-gXdZJueJSF252dLWAZYcUxaLntwo93tBMpQ>
X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeeffedrtddugdefieelucetufdoteggodetrfdotf
    fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdggtfgfnhhsuhgsshgtrhhisggvpdfu
    rfetoffkrfgpnffqhgenuceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnh
    htshculddquddttddmnecujfgurhephffktgggufffjgevvfhfofesrgdtmherhhdtvden
    ucfhrhhomhepufhjohhrshcurfhrohhvohhoshhtuceoshhjohhrshesshhprhhovhhooh
    hsthdrnhhlqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpedvieehheekteefgeehudehieffueetudef
    heevfeehfedtffffheduheefgfduieenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrh
    grmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehsjhhorhhssehsphhrohhvohhoshhtrdhnlhdpnhgspghr
    tghpthhtohepvddpmhhouggvpehsmhhtphhouhhtpdhrtghpthhtoheptghhrhhishhguh
    hiuggrsehgmhgrihhlrdgtohhmpdhrtghpthhtohepsghithgtohhinhguvghvsehgohho
    ghhlvghgrhhouhhpshdrtghomh
X-ME-Proxy: <xmx:uZtBaJyq_iYHLXLS_Tukcc0M4wq1jiXIF9eOzIcGwb1Q-t35UfpRzA>
    <xmx:uptBaMSQyjNOALF_xAAJYkcoE4JeRcHqqYOs_lDetDSl_zWcr_yMGg>
    <xmx:uptBaMZX5viTQo0nR7uDL6sx6OnHOpKNRAtzs-Jovcq1T16jE7ytUw>
    <xmx:uptBaNTUFP6YZefxLFt6UBhGVnmdKrRRmA5F7kyI8lC7DQespw0MCg>
    <xmx:uptBaHmlet0qyjL3pLMwl-SvXUKdVxIFuvG95ezwhVR9Jx-Z5U4MXMuw>
Feedback-ID: ie5e042df:Fastmail
Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Thu,
 5 Jun 2025 09:29:29 -0400 (EDT)
From: Sjors Provoost <sjors@sprovoost.nl>
Message-Id: <05CE1FD4-3BE1-4F80-829F-684E20BA73D4@sprovoost.nl>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
	boundary="Apple-Mail=_57A5119D-9ED5-41B3-86C0-356D5742439F"
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3826.600.51.1.1\))
Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] Censorship Resistant Transaction Relay - Taking out
 the garbage(man)
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2025 15:29:17 +0200
In-Reply-To: <CAAANnUyCj2cAgAG-sDZi_xOHHoEf7YO10f4XdKmSZCEDC=Fx6g@mail.gmail.com>
Cc: bitcoindev@googlegroups.com
To: Chris Guida <chrisguida@gmail.com>
References: <aDWfDI03I-Rakopb@petertodd.org>
 <CAHTn92zkmfw2KwZCTRyGhnYPASWBUoLaxV65ASYpPeBUpX1SWw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAANnUwHcd1w6phwyfDKebzEabAtm=A3i2qkLDpJ9L47q75T9Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <4BA2B86E-3E4B-416B-9237-AFD66FC4E37A@sprovoost.nl>
 <CAAANnUyCj2cAgAG-sDZi_xOHHoEf7YO10f4XdKmSZCEDC=Fx6g@mail.gmail.com>
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3826.600.51.1.1)
X-Original-Sender: sjors@sprovoost.nl
X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com;       dkim=pass
 header.i=@sprovoost.nl header.s=fm2 header.b=teAOvr0e;       dkim=pass
 header.i=@messagingengine.com header.s=fm1 header.b=ik2h6XTR;       spf=pass
 (google.com: domain of sjors@sprovoost.nl designates 103.168.172.156 as
 permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=sjors@sprovoost.nl;       dmarc=pass (p=NONE
 sp=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=sprovoost.nl
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com
List-ID: <bitcoindev.googlegroups.com>
X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512
List-Post: <https://groups.google.com/group/bitcoindev/post>, <mailto:bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>
List-Help: <https://groups.google.com/support/>, <mailto:bitcoindev+help@googlegroups.com>
List-Archive: <https://groups.google.com/group/bitcoindev
List-Subscribe: <https://groups.google.com/group/bitcoindev/subscribe>, <mailto:bitcoindev+subscribe@googlegroups.com>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:googlegroups-manage+786775582512+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com>,
 <https://groups.google.com/group/bitcoindev/subscribe>
X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/)


--Apple-Mail=_57A5119D-9ED5-41B3-86C0-356D5742439F
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

Hi Chris,

I'm replying to a few points that matter imo.

> Again, as I tried to emphasize in my prior message, the goal is not to ce=
nsor; the goal is to rate-limit spam.

.
The tooling you're building is dual-use at best, and from a miner point of =
view it's censorship.

>> Then all you've achieved is an incentive to submit directly to miners, m=
aking those miners more profitable. Congrats, you didn't fix spam, you didn=
't rate limit anything and you made mining more centralised.
>=20
>=20
> Again, if miners are doing this, then they are hostile. If >50% of miners=
 are hostile, then we need to know right now because Nakamoto Consensus fal=
ls apart if >50% of the hashrate is dishonest.

Miners are simply following their incentives. It's merely your opinion that=
 this is "hostile". The people who share your opinion have not presented a =
credible way of enforcing it. All they've achieved is collateral damage.

> Is your concern that the USG would spin up a bunch of GM nodes that don't=
 relay transactions from OFAC addresses?=20

No, they would take down the entire mempool by spinning up a million well c=
onnected fake nodes that behave in the same way your project does, except t=
hey drop *all* transactions. Since there's no financial incentive for users=
 to run nodes, it'll be hard to counter this attack by merely spinning up m=
ore nodes.

> >You speak of "rate limiting", but delaying propagation doesn't rate limi=
t anything. Unless you completely block some percentage of transactions, th=
e same amount of spam ends up in blocks, just a little bit later. The rate,=
 e.g. gigabytes per months, stays the same.
>=20
> Again, this is simply incorrect. Spam does not have inelastic demand.
> [...]
> If a certain percentage of the hashrate is confirming spam, let's say 20%=
,


No, 100% will be confirming spam and nothing happens to the fee rate. Elast=
icity isn't an issue here.

Where does your 20% figure come from? Is that based on your assumption they=
 are not "hostile" and would just go along with not receiving the extra rev=
enue if your sybil nodes block it?=20

But why would 80% of miners throw away fee revenue? They won't, so both tra=
nsaction makers and miners will go around your "rate limiting".

The thing that is concerning here is that they'll use centralised transacti=
on submission services for this, and any miner that doesn't join such servi=
ce loses revenue and goes out of business.

> >Whereas proponents of filters are (so far) not willing to invest serious=
 money.
>=20
> I wouldn't be so sure about that.

You're not providing any evidence to the contrary.

And again, Ocean Pool proactively added the "Core" template after they got =
pushback from customers for only offering Knots with filtering. After v30 t=
hat template will allow unlimited OP_RETURN. Perhaps they'll drop it then, =
but so far they haven't put a cent of revenue at risk.

> >Or people can just spin up more Libre Relay nodes.
>=20
> Who are these people? Altcoiners?? Yeah, right. Anyway, we can just spin =
up more GM nodes.

This comes back to question of budget. Miners and scammers have budget for =
relay infrastructure. You can of course try to outspend them, with your own=
 money or a rich donor. If you sustain that effort long enough, it may be c=
heaper for them to use centralised submission services. Which as others hav=
e pointed out is very bad.

- Sjors

--=20
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/=
05CE1FD4-3BE1-4F80-829F-684E20BA73D4%40sprovoost.nl.

--Apple-Mail=_57A5119D-9ED5-41B3-86C0-356D5742439F
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=
=3Dus-ascii"></head><body style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-=
mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;">Hi Chris,<div><br></div><div>I=
'm replying to a few points that matter imo.</div><div><br></div><div><bloc=
kquote type=3D"cite">Again, as I tried to emphasize in my prior message, th=
e goal is not to&nbsp;<i>censor</i>; the goal is to&nbsp;<i>rate-limit spam=
</i>.</blockquote></div><div>.</div><div>The tooling you're building is dua=
l-use at best, and from a miner point of view it's censorship.</div><div><b=
r></div><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><blockquote ty=
pe=3D"cite">Then all you've achieved is an incentive to submit directly to =
miners, making those miners more profitable. Congrats, you didn't fix spam,=
 you didn't rate limit anything and you made mining more centralised.</bloc=
kquote></div><div><br></div><div>Again, if miners are doing this, then they=
 are hostile. If &gt;50% of miners are hostile, then we need to know&nbsp;<=
i>right now</i>&nbsp;because Nakamoto Consensus falls apart if &gt;50% of t=
he hashrate is dishonest.</div></div></blockquote><br></div><div>Miners are=
 simply following their incentives. It's merely your opinion that this is "=
hostile". The people who share your opinion have not presented a credible w=
ay of enforcing it. All they've achieved is collateral damage.</div><div><b=
r></div><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr">Is your concern tha=
t the USG would spin up a bunch of GM nodes that don't relay transactions f=
rom OFAC addresses?&nbsp;</div></blockquote><br></div><div>No, they would t=
ake down the entire mempool by spinning up a million well connected fake no=
des that behave in the same way your project does, except they drop *all* t=
ransactions. Since there's no financial incentive for users to run nodes, i=
t'll be hard to counter this attack by merely spinning up more nodes.</div>=
<div><br></div><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>&gt;You=
 speak of "rate limiting", but delaying propagation doesn't rate limit anyt=
hing. Unless you completely block some percentage of transactions, the same=
 amount of spam ends up in blocks, just a little bit later. The rate, e.g. =
gigabytes per months, stays the same.</div><div><br></div><div>Again, this =
is simply incorrect. Spam does not have inelastic demand.</div><div>[...]</=
div><div>If a certain percentage of the hashrate is confirming spam, let's =
say 20%,</div></div></blockquote></div><div><br></div><div>No, 100% will be=
 confirming spam and nothing happens to the fee rate. Elasticity isn't an i=
ssue here.</div><div><br></div><div>Where does your 20% figure come from? I=
s that based on your assumption they are not "hostile" and would just go al=
ong with not receiving the extra revenue if your sybil nodes block it?&nbsp=
;</div><div><br></div><div>But why would 80% of miners throw away fee reven=
ue? They won't, so both transaction makers and miners will go around your "=
rate limiting".</div><div><br></div><div>The thing that is concerning here =
is that they'll use centralised transaction submission services for this, a=
nd any miner that doesn't join such service loses revenue and goes out of b=
usiness.</div><div><br></div><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr=
"><div>&gt;Whereas proponents of filters are (so far) not willing to invest=
 serious money.</div><div><br></div><div>I wouldn't be so sure about that.<=
/div></div></blockquote><br></div><div>You're not providing any evidence to=
 the contrary.</div><div><br></div><div>And again, Ocean Pool proactively a=
dded the "Core" template after they got pushback from customers for only of=
fering Knots with filtering. After v30 that template will allow unlimited O=
P_RETURN. Perhaps they'll drop it then, but so far they haven't put a cent =
of revenue at risk.</div><div><br></div><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div=
 dir=3D"ltr"><div>&gt;Or people can just spin up more Libre Relay nodes.</d=
iv><div><br></div><div>Who are these people? Altcoiners?? Yeah, right. Anyw=
ay, we can just spin up more GM nodes.</div></div></blockquote><br></div><d=
iv>This comes back to question of budget. Miners and scammers have budget f=
or relay infrastructure. You can of course try to outspend them, with your =
own money or a rich donor. If you sustain that effort long enough, it may b=
e cheaper for them to use centralised submission services. Which as others =
have pointed out is very bad.</div><div><br></div><div>- Sjors</div><div><b=
r></div></body></html>

<p></p>

-- <br />
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &=
quot;Bitcoin Development Mailing List&quot; group.<br />
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to <a href=3D"mailto:bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com">bitcoind=
ev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com</a>.<br />
To view this discussion visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/=
bitcoindev/05CE1FD4-3BE1-4F80-829F-684E20BA73D4%40sprovoost.nl?utm_medium=
=3Demail&utm_source=3Dfooter">https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/=
05CE1FD4-3BE1-4F80-829F-684E20BA73D4%40sprovoost.nl</a>.<br />

--Apple-Mail=_57A5119D-9ED5-41B3-86C0-356D5742439F--