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Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2025 13:07:21 +0000
To: Jameson Lopp <jameson.lopp@gmail.com>
From: "'Antoine Poinsot' via Bitcoin Development Mailing List" <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>
Cc: Matt Corallo <lf-lists@mattcorallo.com>, Andrew Poelstra <apoelstra@wpsoftware.net>, Bitcoin Development Mailing List <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] CTV + CSFS: a letter
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Jameson,

Thanks for sharing. Although i grew more skeptical of the reactive security=
 model of vaults as i implemented them in practice for real users, i can ap=
preciate people's mileage may vary.

That said, consensus-enforced vaults require a mechanism to forward any amo=
unt received on a script A to a pre-committed script B. CTV+CSFS does not e=
nable this, and a primitive that actually does (like CCV) is more controver=
sial because of its potency. I see the CTV+CSFS bundle as maximizing "bang =
for your buck" in terms of capabilities enabled compared to the accompanyin=
g risk. If we do want vaults, then we need to get past the MEVil concerns a=
nd much more interesting primitives are actually on the table.

I also appreciate that CTV is nice to have for CCV vaults, but a potential =
future use case that is not enabled by one proposal cannot be used to motiv=
ate said proposal.

Best,
Antoine Poinsot
On Friday, June 13th, 2025 at 7:15 AM, Jameson Lopp <jameson.lopp@gmail.com=
> wrote:

>> Unlike a generic "We Want Things" sign-on letter, individual messages in=
dicating desire to utilize features is way more compelling.
>
> Then I submit my essay from 2 years ago (https://blog.casa.io/why-bitcoin=
-needs-covenants/) and will quote myself:
>
> "There are clearly a LOT of use cases that could potentially be unlocked =
with the right kind of covenant implementation. Personally, having spent 8 =
years working on high security multi-signature wallets, I'm most interested=
 in vaults. I believe the value they offer is quite straightforward and is =
applicable to every single self-custody bitcoin user, regardless of what ty=
pe of wallet they are running."
>
> - Jameson
>
> On Thu, Jun 12, 2025 at 6:54=E2=80=AFPM Matt Corallo <lf-lists@mattcorall=
o.com> wrote:
>
>> To be fair to James, in my (luckily rather brief) experience with Bitcoi=
n-consensus-letter-writing,
>> its nearly impossible to forge a statement that everyone agrees to that =
is consistently interpreted.
>>
>> Matt
>>
>> On 6/12/25 3:51 PM, Andrew Poelstra wrote:
>>> Le Thu, Jun 12, 2025 at 02:38:13PM -0400, James O'Beirne a =C3=A9crit :
>>>>
>>>> As the person who coordinated the letter, I can say that this is not a=
n
>>>> accurate characterization of the signers' intent. Everyone who signed
>>>> explicitly wants to see the imminent review, integration, and activati=
on
>>>> planning for CTV+CSFS specifically. The letter is intentionally concis=
e to
>>>> make sure there are no misunderstandings about that.
>>>>
>>>> I spoke to each person on the original list of signatories who either =
did
>>>> (or didn't) sign and this was made very clear. Some people didn't sign=
 as a
>>>> result of what the letter says.
>>>>
>>>
>>> The letter asks Core to "prioritize the review and integration" on an
>>> accelerated timeline, and that this will "allow" for "activation planni=
ng".
>>>
>>> Early drafts of the letter did ask for actual integration and even
>>> activation, but I did not sign any of those early drafts. It was not
>>> until the language was weakened to be about priorities and planning (an=
d
>>> to be a "respectful ask" rather some sort of demand) that I signed on.
>>>
>>>
>>> The letter is concise but unfortunately I think Matt is correct that it
>>> offers a broad range of interpretations, even among the signers.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group=
s "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send a=
n email to [bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com](mailto:bitcoindev%2Bun=
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>> To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoind=
ev/f8b37a59-0897-40df-a08e-7812c806a716%40mattcorallo.com.
>
> --
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--b1=_IdikiOxBUGcc5NvF98ko8C2QEx0ZAkHij4ifUG9UsI
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<div style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;">Jameson,</d=
iv><div style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;"><br></di=
v><div style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;">Thanks fo=
r sharing. Although i grew more skeptical of the reactive security model of=
 vaults as i implemented them in practice for real users, i can appreciate =
people's mileage may vary.</div><div style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-seri=
f; font-size: 14px;"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif=
; font-size: 14px;">That said, consensus-enforced vaults require a mechanis=
m to forward any amount received on a script A to a pre-committed script B.=
 CTV+CSFS does not enable this, and a primitive that actually does (like CC=
V) is more controversial because of its potency. I see the CTV+CSFS bundle =
as maximizing "bang for your buck" in terms of capabilities enabled compare=
d to the accompanying risk. If we do want vaults, then we need to get past =
the MEVil concerns and much more interesting primitives are actually on the=
 table.<br></div><div style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 1=
4px;"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14=
px;">I also appreciate that CTV is nice to have for CCV vaults, but a poten=
tial future use case that is not enabled by one proposal cannot be used to =
motivate said proposal.</div><div style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif; =
font-size: 14px;"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif; f=
ont-size: 14px;">Best,<br>Antoine Poinsot<br></div><div class=3D"protonmail=
_quote">
        On Friday, June 13th, 2025 at 7:15 AM, Jameson Lopp &lt;jameson.lop=
p@gmail.com&gt; wrote:<br>
        <blockquote class=3D"protonmail_quote" type=3D"cite">
            <div dir=3D"ltr">&gt; Unlike a generic "We Want Things" sign-on=
 letter, individual messages indicating desire to utilize features is way m=
ore compelling.<div><br></div><div>Then I submit my essay from 2 years ago =
(<a href=3D"https://blog.casa.io/why-bitcoin-needs-covenants/" target=3D"_b=
lank" rel=3D"noreferrer nofollow noopener">https://blog.casa.io/why-bitcoin=
-needs-covenants/</a>) and will quote myself:</div><div><br></div><div>"The=
re are clearly a LOT of use cases that could potentially be unlocked with t=
he right kind of covenant implementation. Personally, having spent 8 years =
working on high security multi-signature wallets, I'm most interested in va=
ults. I believe the value they offer is quite straightforward and is applic=
able to every single self-custody bitcoin user, regardless of what type of =
wallet they are running."</div><div><br></div><div>- Jameson</div></div><br=
><div class=3D"gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><div class=3D"gmail_attr"=
 dir=3D"ltr">On Thu, Jun 12, 2025 at 6:54=E2=80=AFPM Matt Corallo &lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:lf-lists@mattcorallo.com" rel=3D"noreferrer nofollow noopener"=
>lf-lists@mattcorallo.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote style=3D"marg=
in:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1e=
x" class=3D"gmail_quote">To be fair to James, in my (luckily rather brief) =
experience with Bitcoin-consensus-letter-writing, <br>
its nearly impossible to forge a statement that everyone agrees to that is =
consistently interpreted.<br>
<br>
Matt<br>
<br>
On 6/12/25 3:51 PM, Andrew Poelstra wrote:<br>
&gt; Le Thu, Jun 12, 2025 at 02:38:13PM -0400, James O'Beirne a =C3=A9crit =
:<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; As the person who coordinated the letter, I can say that this is n=
ot an<br>
&gt;&gt; accurate characterization of the signers' intent. Everyone who sig=
ned<br>
&gt;&gt; explicitly wants to see the imminent review, integration, and acti=
vation<br>
&gt;&gt; planning for CTV+CSFS specifically. The letter is intentionally co=
ncise to<br>
&gt;&gt; make sure there are no misunderstandings about that.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; I spoke to each person on the original list of signatories who eit=
her did<br>
&gt;&gt; (or didn't) sign and this was made very clear. Some people didn't =
sign as a<br>
&gt;&gt; result of what the letter says.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; The letter asks Core to "prioritize the review and integration" on an<=
br>
&gt; accelerated timeline, and that this will "allow" for "activation plann=
ing".<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Early drafts of the letter did ask for actual integration and even<br>
&gt; activation, but I did not sign any of those early drafts. It was not<b=
r>
&gt; until the language was weakened to be about priorities and planning (a=
nd<br>
&gt; to be a "respectful ask" rather some sort of demand) that I signed on.=
<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; The letter is concise but unfortunately I think Matt is correct that i=
t<br>
&gt; offers a broad range of interpretations, even among the signers.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
<br>
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