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From: Chris Stewart <stewart.chris1234@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2025 06:02:46 -0500
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Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] Consensus Cleanup BIP draft
To: Sjors Provoost <sjors@sprovoost.nl>
Cc: Bitcoin Development Mailing List <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>, jeremy <jeremy.l.rubin@gmail.com>
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Hi Sjors,

An example is any segwit transaction that 1 input 1 output that pays to a 2
byte witness program. Since witness data doesn't count towards the 64 byte
limit, the witness could be of arbitrary size. This was pointed out
<https://delvingbitcoin.org/t/great-consensus-cleanup-revival/710/74?u=3Dch=
ris_stewart_5>
by garlonicon <https://delvingbitcoin.org/u/garlonicon> on delvingbitcoin.
This type of witness program is used for pay-to-anchor outputs currently -
although I don't believe anchor outputs make sense in a 1 input 1 output
transaction? The author of pay to anchor outputs is aware of this issue
<https://delvingbitcoin.org/t/great-consensus-cleanup-revival/710/78?u=3Dch=
ris_stewart_5>,
but I haven't heard of any further updates since his post on delving.

-Chris

On Fri, Mar 28, 2025 at 4:25=E2=80=AFAM Sjors Provoost <sjors@sprovoost.nl>=
 wrote:

>
> > Op 27 mrt 2025, om 21:45 heeft jeremy <jeremy.l.rubin@gmail.com> het
> volgende geschreven:
> >
> > I'm also personally strongly against removing 64-byte transactions. It'=
s
> a wart in how transactions work, and future upgrades (especially around t=
x
> programmability) might integrate very poorly with this kind of edge
> condition.
>
> Do you have an example in mind where a 64-byte transaction could appear i=
n
> such a system?
>
> Given the limited space, in particular no room for a public key or
> signature, I could imagine a burn or anyone-can-spend clause. Those don't
> have to be exactly 64 bytes. Even if 64 byte transactions are generated b=
y
> accident, I believe they can be tweaked after the fact (though that claim
> could use more scrutiny):
>
> https://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/q/125971/4948
>
> If we grant that any smart contract system has to engineer around this
> "ward", we should also consider how much engineering effort is saved in
> other smart contract systems by having simpler SPV proofs.
>
> Imo the real ward is the originally broken Merkle tree design. That has
> required a bunch of engineering all over the place to compensate. Afaik i=
t
> can only be truly fixed with a hard fork. This seems to be as good as it
> gets with a soft fork.
>
> - Sjors
>
> --
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> "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group.
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6B0C2D8D%40sprovoost.nl
> .
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Hi Sjors,</div><div><br></div><div>An example is any =
segwit transaction that 1 input 1 output that pays to a 2 byte witness prog=
ram. Since witness data doesn&#39;t count towards the 64 byte limit, the wi=
tness could be of arbitrary size. This was <a href=3D"https://delvingbitcoi=
n.org/t/great-consensus-cleanup-revival/710/74?u=3Dchris_stewart_5">pointed=
 out</a> by <span class=3D"gmail-first gmail-username"><a href=3D"https://d=
elvingbitcoin.org/u/garlonicon" class=3D"gmail-">garlonicon</a> on delvingb=
itcoin. This type of witness program is used for pay-to-anchor outputs curr=
ently - although I don&#39;t believe anchor outputs make sense in a 1 input=
 1 output transaction? The author of pay to anchor outputs is <a href=3D"ht=
tps://delvingbitcoin.org/t/great-consensus-cleanup-revival/710/78?u=3Dchris=
_stewart_5">aware of this issue</a>, but I haven&#39;t heard of any further=
 updates since his post on delving.</span></div><div><span class=3D"gmail-f=
irst gmail-username"><br></span></div><div><span class=3D"gmail-first gmail=
-username">-Chris</span></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote gmail_quo=
te_container"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, Mar 28, 2025 at=
 4:25=E2=80=AFAM Sjors Provoost &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sjors@sprovoost.nl">s=
jors@sprovoost.nl</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote"=
 style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);p=
adding-left:1ex"><br>
&gt; Op 27 mrt 2025, om 21:45 heeft jeremy &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jeremy.l.r=
ubin@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">jeremy.l.rubin@gmail.com</a>&gt; het volg=
ende geschreven:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; I&#39;m also personally strongly against removing 64-byte transactions=
. It&#39;s a wart in how transactions work, and future upgrades (especially=
 around tx programmability) might integrate very poorly with this kind of e=
dge condition.<br>
<br>
Do you have an example in mind where a 64-byte transaction could appear in =
such a system?<br>
<br>
Given the limited space, in particular no room for a public key or signatur=
e, I could imagine a burn or anyone-can-spend clause. Those don&#39;t have =
to be exactly 64 bytes. Even if 64 byte transactions are generated by accid=
ent, I believe they can be tweaked after the fact (though that claim could =
use more scrutiny):<br>
<br>
<a href=3D"https://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/q/125971/4948" rel=3D"noreferr=
er" target=3D"_blank">https://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/q/125971/4948</a><b=
r>
<br>
If we grant that any smart contract system has to engineer around this &quo=
t;ward&quot;, we should also consider how much engineering effort is saved =
in other smart contract systems by having simpler SPV proofs.<br>
<br>
Imo the real ward is the originally broken Merkle tree design. That has req=
uired a bunch of engineering all over the place to compensate. Afaik it can=
 only be truly fixed with a hard fork. This seems to be as good as it gets =
with a soft fork.<br>
<br>
- Sjors<br>
<br>
-- <br>
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