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From: Tao Effect <contact@taoeffect.com>
In-Reply-To: <CAAS2fgSU+UtbJSSAhf0-Sd0GH-RGnZmv+WHWtFV2zHFW2q6_yg@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2017 16:12:26 -0700
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To: Gregory Maxwell <greg@xiph.org>
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Cc: Bitcoin Dev <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Replay attacks make BIP148 and BIP149 untennable
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Hey Greg,

It wasn't my intention to insult anyone (a bit defensive?).

Maybe this is yet another example of a recurring criticism of Core: that =
core doesn't community these issues very well to journalists / reports / =
media / community outside of this list.

Because outside of this list it's been all about those 148 coins, and =
almost zero mention of replay attacks.

> BIP149 is arguably something of another matter in particular because
> it has a time-frame that allows dealing with replay and other issues--
> and particularly because it has a time-frame that can allow for the
> avoidance of a meaningful fork at all.

Are there other, more reasonable / feasible ways of addressing replay =
attacks in Bitcoin / BIP149 scenario?

Cheers,
Greg

--
Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also =
sharing with the NSA.

> On Jun 6, 2017, at 4:02 PM, Gregory Maxwell <greg@xiph.org =
<mailto:greg@xiph.org>> wrote:
>=20
> On Tue, Jun 6, 2017 at 10:39 PM, Tao Effect via bitcoin-dev
> <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org =
<mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>> wrote:
>> I believe the severity of replay attacks is going unvoiced and is not
>> understood within the bitcoin community because of their lack of =
experience
>> with them.
>=20
> Please don't insult our community-- the issues with replay were
> pointed out by us to Ethereum in advance and were cited specifically
> in prior hardfork discussions long before Ethereum started editing
> their ledger for the economic benefit of its centralized
> administrators.
>=20
> The lack of extensive discussion on these issues you're seeing is
> rather symptomatic of engineers that take stability seriously not
> taking BIP148 seriously; not symptomatic of people not knowing about
> them. The same concerns also applies to all these HF proposals (which
> for some reason you don't mention), arguably even stronger.  The same
> basic pattern exists: There are people that just don't care about the
> technical issues who have made up their minds, and so you don't see
> technical discussion.  Those people who do see the issues already
> called out the proposals as being ill-advised.   Replay isn't even the
> largest of the technical issues (network partitioning, for example, is
> a much larger one).
>=20
> BIP149 is arguably something of another matter in particular because
> it has a time-frame that allows dealing with replay and other issues--
> and particularly because it has a time-frame that can allow for the
> avoidance of a meaningful fork at all.


--Apple-Mail=_C5232B32-55E4-4545-A3E5-425A67E7309D
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dus-ascii"><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html=
 charset=3Dus-ascii"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">Hey Greg,<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">It wasn't my intention to insult anyone (a bit =
defensive?).<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Maybe =
this is yet another example of a recurring criticism of Core: that core =
doesn't community these issues very well to journalists / reports / =
media / community outside of this list.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Because outside of this list it's been =
all about those 148 coins, and almost zero mention of replay =
attacks.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">BIP149 is arguably =
something of another matter in particular because<br class=3D"">it has a =
time-frame that allows dealing with replay and other issues--<br =
class=3D"">and particularly because it has a time-frame that can allow =
for the<br class=3D"">avoidance of a meaningful fork at all.<br =
class=3D""></blockquote><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Are there other, more reasonable / feasible ways of =
addressing replay attacks in Bitcoin / BIP149 scenario?</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D"webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div =
class=3D"">Cheers,</div><div class=3D"">Greg</div><div class=3D"">
<span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-variant-ligatures: normal; =
font-variant-position: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; =
font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: 2; widows: 2;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">--</span><br style=3D"color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-position: normal; =
font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; =
font-variant-east-asian: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; =
widows: 2;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-position: normal; =
font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; =
font-variant-east-asian: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; =
widows: 2;" class=3D"">Please do not email me anything that you are not =
comfortable also sharing</span><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-position: normal; =
font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; =
font-variant-east-asian: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; =
widows: 2;" class=3D"">&nbsp;with the NSA.</span>
</div>
<br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Jun 6, 2017, at 4:02 PM, Gregory Maxwell &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:greg@xiph.org" class=3D"">greg@xiph.org</a>&gt; =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Tue, Jun 6, 2017 at 10:39 PM, Tao Effect via =
bitcoin-dev<br class=3D"">&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" =
class=3D"">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">I believe the severity =
of replay attacks is going unvoiced and is not<br class=3D"">understood =
within the bitcoin community because of their lack of experience<br =
class=3D"">with them.<br class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D"">Please =
don't insult our community-- the issues with replay were<br =
class=3D"">pointed out by us to Ethereum in advance and were cited =
specifically<br class=3D"">in prior hardfork discussions long before =
Ethereum started editing<br class=3D"">their ledger for the economic =
benefit of its centralized<br class=3D"">administrators.<br class=3D""><br=
 class=3D"">The lack of extensive discussion on these issues you're =
seeing is<br class=3D"">rather symptomatic of engineers that take =
stability seriously not<br class=3D"">taking BIP148 seriously; not =
symptomatic of people not knowing about<br class=3D"">them. The same =
concerns also applies to all these HF proposals (which<br class=3D"">for =
some reason you don't mention), arguably even stronger. &nbsp;The =
same<br class=3D"">basic pattern exists: There are people that just =
don't care about the<br class=3D"">technical issues who have made up =
their minds, and so you don't see<br class=3D"">technical discussion. =
&nbsp;Those people who do see the issues already<br class=3D"">called =
out the proposals as being ill-advised. &nbsp;&nbsp;Replay isn't even =
the<br class=3D"">largest of the technical issues (network partitioning, =
for example, is<br class=3D"">a much larger one).<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">BIP149 is arguably something of another matter in particular =
because<br class=3D"">it has a time-frame that allows dealing with =
replay and other issues--<br class=3D"">and particularly because it has =
a time-frame that can allow for the<br class=3D"">avoidance of a =
meaningful fork at all.<br class=3D""></div></div></blockquote></div><br =
class=3D""></div></div></body></html>=

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