1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
30
31
32
33
34
35
36
37
38
39
40
41
42
43
44
45
46
47
48
49
50
51
52
53
54
55
56
57
58
59
60
61
62
63
64
65
66
67
68
69
70
71
72
73
74
75
76
77
78
79
80
81
82
83
84
85
86
87
88
89
90
91
92
93
94
95
96
97
98
99
100
101
102
103
104
105
106
107
108
109
110
111
112
113
114
115
116
117
118
119
120
121
122
123
124
125
126
127
128
129
130
131
132
133
134
135
136
137
138
139
140
141
142
143
144
145
146
147
148
149
150
151
152
153
154
155
156
157
158
159
160
161
162
163
164
165
166
167
168
169
170
171
172
173
174
175
176
177
178
179
180
181
182
183
184
185
186
187
188
189
190
191
192
193
194
195
196
197
198
199
200
201
202
203
204
205
206
207
208
209
210
211
212
213
214
215
216
217
218
219
220
221
222
|
Return-Path: <earonesty@gmail.com>
Received: from smtp4.osuosl.org (smtp4.osuosl.org [IPv6:2605:bc80:3010::137])
by lists.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50D87C002D
for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
Tue, 26 Apr 2022 13:06:13 +0000 (UTC)
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
by smtp4.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B3EF41803
for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
Tue, 26 Apr 2022 13:06:13 +0000 (UTC)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at osuosl.org
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.398
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.398 tagged_above=-999 required=5
tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1,
FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001,
HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001,
RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001]
autolearn=no autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: smtp4.osuosl.org (amavisd-new);
dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=q32-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com
Received: from smtp4.osuosl.org ([127.0.0.1])
by localhost (smtp4.osuosl.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024)
with ESMTP id ahQqLUS-tj46
for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
Tue, 26 Apr 2022 13:06:12 +0000 (UTC)
X-Greylist: whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.8.0
Received: from mail-lf1-x129.google.com (mail-lf1-x129.google.com
[IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::129])
by smtp4.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BDF3D417D2
for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
Tue, 26 Apr 2022 13:06:11 +0000 (UTC)
Received: by mail-lf1-x129.google.com with SMTP id p12so26282980lfs.5
for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
Tue, 26 Apr 2022 06:06:11 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
d=q32-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112;
h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to
:cc; bh=r1/gJBauazLET1FLLQL0VIbzsWBXQ96QVhsBV9T+LkA=;
b=S2AN9+JGSMN05zoGyK4EAyATj60uVm8dUfooa+fR6xtRTY7SAPAHZOnFrXMZzn+2DH
6blyeWcpzvt6OqxYuFb8c7rdIdgnwSmSTm6unYPThBVzNInBK5R6h/nX+Pm9ZghM874F
7tEri28jEyDteo+U3R5V+8sA/8nXnq3KvhdVATSalllEwZgMwIMN5FQYCsTmyyeVLAmX
wnDWdsEqQuDAZgyuwLPWCE89VRFY6IUso1ZhrEtLKUtpBL55Yb2dpl9+JDwOxih8CdJT
u4XYxKPgmt5sMu6y1gbYJxRWdoCEBDdt3Y9h5Pk1JexzPgShhlaXXBr39+iPUzh5x0pz
4aWQ==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
d=1e100.net; s=20210112;
h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date
:message-id:subject:to:cc;
bh=r1/gJBauazLET1FLLQL0VIbzsWBXQ96QVhsBV9T+LkA=;
b=CQNVK7zeYylpxqL/8CGnPcu5KqXse025An2fXIL4XaQvRtZtwvo+/YDc7OJ3/poXYj
WV8U9dTxmn27p7F2R7Azb1pRR7LfHctqFDTTrCpl027PWWXdoKz9CiOODGMqc5YxyCAM
yvkhNvX+YLwuZc68d6Muth82gbQTSZUKFGu0icQ9AGuXln+Td9pRs0WP3YxGpf123Z//
5s81I/yB1bdrHlUXfKNbmIsEiKPJyCrj9lQx2i5ERMeYWM8rXzpIhZqN4JV9aLDmcUyA
IiGZerzfFmuH6xX1m1Ndl4AikSLzbZfWKitib/y+vO7XSDcLYFRx0FlzLntyXhK9pUnU
qGZg==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532T0gsoE2O/rnWbVNuKLco/WXt+MIGXUrl3G4o0B6GESza8Ti9p
dZ64nJA8Xv6XZI+y4rN2Pj9k2cxNrbLuGAezpelS5/I=
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzJo4XC2uLnb29XvDUpb9xNFU6Orf66L7q7+M1YFKhO+n3iEYFQFVXNInARkJau3aFL57BSWAsyrNrP/s0gfsE=
X-Received: by 2002:a19:ad46:0:b0:46b:b1a4:ffd5 with SMTP id
s6-20020a19ad46000000b0046bb1a4ffd5mr16469656lfd.103.1650978367983; Tue, 26
Apr 2022 06:06:07 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <CABm2gDpMxN0sBCpcbmvYsQbdsGp=JRjAyLhsd6BWyAxdCY95+A@mail.gmail.com>
<20220330042106.GA13161@erisian.com.au>
<CABm2gDrsZ9ZimFTkNrdj+wr7328h2N2GmRCawq8xYv3BqyHNow@mail.gmail.com>
<20220411130522.GA3633@erisian.com.au>
<CABm2gDqw7ZSLwuFvWstLpkRAFT_4DLWkhNFBLW8m_E46_VWG3A@mail.gmail.com>
<20220424121429.GA7363@erisian.com.au>
<CABm2gDo0=psMAKY6Pvfp8b-RvAJdUabiESJpff_yzgwmy7cigQ@mail.gmail.com>
<CALeFGL19G7eLdM7J9dQrumdVTgo1OyoK6UbzF3oJMkGG55qLzg@mail.gmail.com>
<20220425170012.GA7453@erisian.com.au>
<CALeFGL3Ga+jqGDf0zGVev7RMYnZQVQaRQ7SXxsY=qH+CGhoPpg@mail.gmail.com>
<20220426054214.GA7933@erisian.com.au>
In-Reply-To: <20220426054214.GA7933@erisian.com.au>
From: Erik Aronesty <erik@q32.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2022 09:05:56 -0400
Message-ID: <CAJowKg+HM6Z44rOVrS0_g=GdzWPZVwggxgQYGPTBrZDir5W4Hw@mail.gmail.com>
To: Anthony Towns <aj@erisian.com.au>,
Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000027d59405dd8e5b91"
X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 26 Apr 2022 16:32:07 +0000
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Speedy Trial
X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15
Precedence: list
List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev.lists.linuxfoundation.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/options/bitcoin-dev>,
<mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/>
List-Post: <mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
List-Help: <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev>,
<mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2022 13:06:13 -0000
--00000000000027d59405dd8e5b91
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
- it occurs to me that the real problem we have isn't whether miners lead
or users lead. we know that users lead, we just need miners to be "ready"
and have time to upgrade their software
- in the case of "evil" forks, i also don't need or want miners to
"defend" bitcoin... (if bitcoin is so broken that a bad fork gets past all
of the users, the miners have lost their purpose, so that is a fallacy of
reification and should be ignored)
- we cannot measure user consensus in any systematic way, or else we
resort to gaming the system or centralization
- wallet votes (sign a message signalling... ), can cause
centralization pressures
- node signals (node published signal) will be sybil attacked
- eyeballs... (lol)
- can we all agree that this verbal and social wrangling and chest
pounding seems, right now, to remain the best system of achieving
consensus? or can we do better?
On Tue, Apr 26, 2022 at 1:42 AM Anthony Towns via bitcoin-dev <
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 25, 2022 at 11:26:09AM -0600, Keagan McClelland via
> bitcoin-dev wrote:
> > > Semi-mandatory in that only "threshold" blocks must signal, so if
> > only 4% or 9% of miners aren't signalling and the threshold is set
> > at 95% or 90%, no blocks will be orphaned.
> > How do nodes decide on which blocks are orphaned if only some of them
> have
> > to signal, and others don't? Is it just any block that would cause the
> > whole threshold period to fail?
>
> Yes, exactly those. See [0] or [1].
>
> [0]
> https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0008.mediawiki#Mandatory_signalling
>
> [1] https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/pull/1021
> (err, you apparently acked that PR)
>
> Cheers,
> aj
>
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>
--00000000000027d59405dd8e5b91
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<div dir=3D"ltr">- it occurs to me that the real problem we have isn't =
whether miners lead or users lead.=C2=A0 =C2=A0we know that users lead, we =
just need miners to be "ready" and have time to upgrade their sof=
tware<div><br></div><div>=C2=A0- in the case of "evil" forks, i a=
lso don't need or want miners to "defend" bitcoin... (if bitc=
oin is so broken that a bad fork gets past all of the users, the miners hav=
e lost their purpose, so that is a fallacy of reification and should be ign=
ored)<br><br>=C2=A0- we cannot measure user consensus in any systematic way=
, or else we resort to gaming the system or centralization=C2=A0</div><div>=
<br></div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 - wallet votes (sign a message signalling... )=
, can cause centralization pressures</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 - node signals=
(node published signal) will be sybil attacked</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 - e=
yeballs... (lol)</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0- can we all agree that thi=
s verbal and social wrangling and chest pounding seems, right now, to remai=
n the best system of achieving consensus?=C2=A0 or can we do better?</div><=
div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br><br><br></div><div><br></div><div><br=
></div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><=
div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Apr 26, 2022 at 1:42 AM Anthon=
y Towns via bitcoin-dev <<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfounda=
tion.org">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><bl=
ockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-lef=
t:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">On Mon, Apr 25, 2022 at 11:2=
6:09AM -0600, Keagan McClelland via bitcoin-dev wrote:<br>
> > Semi-mandatory in that only "threshold" blocks must sig=
nal, so if<br>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0only 4% or 9% of miners aren't signalling and t=
he threshold is set<br>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0at 95% or 90%, no blocks will be orphaned.<br>
> How do nodes decide on which blocks are orphaned if only some of them =
have<br>
> to signal, and others don't? Is it just any block that would cause=
the<br>
> whole threshold period to fail?<br>
<br>
Yes, exactly those. See [0] or [1].<br>
<br>
[0] <a href=3D"https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0008.mediawi=
ki#Mandatory_signalling" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://githu=
b.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0008.mediawiki#Mandatory_signalling</a><=
br>
<br>
[1] <a href=3D"https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/pull/1021" rel=3D"noreferrer=
" target=3D"_blank">https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/pull/1021</a><br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 (err, you apparently acked that PR)<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
aj<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
bitcoin-dev mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank">=
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev" =
rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mail=
man/listinfo/bitcoin-dev</a><br>
</blockquote></div>
--00000000000027d59405dd8e5b91--
|
