1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
30
31
32
33
34
35
36
37
38
39
40
41
42
43
44
45
46
47
48
49
50
51
52
53
54
55
56
57
58
59
60
61
62
63
64
65
66
67
68
69
70
71
72
73
74
75
76
77
78
79
80
81
82
83
84
85
86
87
88
89
90
91
92
93
94
95
96
97
98
99
100
101
102
103
104
105
106
107
108
109
110
111
112
113
114
115
116
117
118
119
120
121
122
123
124
125
126
127
128
129
130
131
132
133
134
135
136
137
138
139
140
141
142
143
144
145
146
147
148
149
150
151
152
153
154
155
156
157
158
159
160
161
162
163
164
165
166
167
168
169
170
171
172
173
174
175
176
177
178
179
180
181
182
183
184
185
186
187
188
189
190
191
192
193
194
195
196
197
198
199
200
201
202
203
204
205
206
207
208
209
210
211
212
213
214
215
216
217
218
219
220
221
222
223
224
225
226
227
228
229
230
231
232
233
234
235
236
237
238
239
240
241
242
243
244
245
246
247
248
249
250
251
252
253
254
255
256
257
258
259
260
261
262
263
264
265
266
267
268
269
270
271
272
273
274
275
276
277
278
279
280
281
282
283
|
Delivery-date: Tue, 04 Feb 2025 14:32:39 -0800
Received: from mail-qt1-f184.google.com ([209.85.160.184])
by mail.fairlystable.org with esmtps (TLS1.3) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256
(Exim 4.94.2)
(envelope-from <bitcoindev+bncBDRYHVHZTUGRB7NKRK6QMGQE2WMVIWQ@googlegroups.com>)
id 1tfRTC-0005gq-Si
for bitcoindev@gnusha.org; Tue, 04 Feb 2025 14:32:39 -0800
Received: by mail-qt1-f184.google.com with SMTP id d75a77b69052e-467905ab1bbsf61549621cf.1
for <bitcoindev@gnusha.org>; Tue, 04 Feb 2025 14:32:38 -0800 (PST)
ARC-Seal: i=2; a=rsa-sha256; t=1738708353; cv=pass;
d=google.com; s=arc-20240605;
b=Sq7XGC+laxdeQSCk8M/R9imE/CU0DJg2CODtTVMbpIRJbrU6jUsUr3xDtFkM78EDqy
uv/9KKWdOyd+hFNSohMMgPW+VhAA0VMrTkvWDovjwtvHSw5fDJrokvUlxg+poKlUiA4u
c1T9kHII7KA0DagDfCtLGT6+g08HiTJ+OCGmszHFSQkX5cHgix/4xAlNoPbzxh/9b+9R
5Oe/M4Eb+FZKDuyYXLDlrrNuPsQYLDCtw3+10zRU+DGb60WKYCsf40uGO33oOoQcOLmi
oZPqt2vVg+SpozbgoBWcUqOO/2aRaDrfy8KdC+1kS5+70+lvi/78jF1feXZPseWQWWXY
6hJQ==
ARC-Message-Signature: i=2; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=arc-20240605;
h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post
:list-id:mailing-list:precedence:in-reply-to:content-disposition
:mime-version:references:message-id:subject:cc:to:from:date
:feedback-id:sender:dkim-signature;
bh=lc/pO4KUgJIpPareAZ9ViDy1XshhxNLvxMA4zmz3hwQ=;
fh=euDy+87dPIZRo538QadvMUBp8glyNjUx+i/jCuTe68Y=;
b=AA13BxWaSd8HnjRpWAigg5sNkDC6rUhx4jqIs3yWGN59VDvlWT8ZV1/iXHH7gLjui5
2Eq5yxKMg+t9hFNwtVHp+f9GbtaKY9gojJlCRowy+ib2hOjuFWtBogdzGJJ07VoXVinW
YnldhIN5BG85QXrmptfMy/Tyh9NWJUcHGWt2qzKeZpenWJiBvmTFFvnZwJELx2icKDdE
OmtslWeNc89y7un7rM0Lbe6w1RqPVtIhIKzYeAK2whwMXrnY9ugcmsOeqj7Y1C3uUYqo
ukPG8qzwzBftZ7ty1DSpQdfZ943Vp8Qp+3T41RvN7rlDyNYUWGZQDIDtjWUYC9mIi87A
V6+g==;
darn=gnusha.org
ARC-Authentication-Results: i=2; gmr-mx.google.com;
dkim=pass header.i=@messagingengine.com header.s=fm3 header.b=R9DwL6r7;
spf=pass (google.com: domain of pete@petertodd.org designates 103.168.172.156 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=pete@petertodd.org
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
d=googlegroups.com; s=20230601; t=1738708353; x=1739313153; darn=gnusha.org;
h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post
:list-id:mailing-list:precedence:x-original-authentication-results
:x-original-sender:in-reply-to:content-disposition:mime-version
:references:message-id:subject:cc:to:from:date:feedback-id:sender
:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to;
bh=lc/pO4KUgJIpPareAZ9ViDy1XshhxNLvxMA4zmz3hwQ=;
b=fum9fREpyxH7mkF8oBoIap2r7RhT3NkmGHeYcT2x+G96EjEXoYuSIlEXOOSs5deVKo
xdNjhmCSFXO/pFka30Vy8wSHaFwT3skzyLaDFZGXk/9yXeZYl6u+a1AQLPEiCHKSVDhD
1hPhugBllLI+OwakwhpjGP8EPQ41DkuFyu5DCWIHkcwjib7mc4RzWWR/1Gm7rND9qSyp
EuM8olihcfVdu1zLDP1mUkCzvtXgkk3yQPjhplvAHoJw33Bi09+7BbpHmQaahO5u+RBX
NbKCy/m9rV0PeyxW1fICRkiOyoIORXBTA1c+nFNTxKz40kQqvqlMM6VJ0SkKK9NiW8ku
oAuA==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1738708353; x=1739313153;
h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post
:list-id:mailing-list:precedence:x-original-authentication-results
:x-original-sender:in-reply-to:content-disposition:mime-version
:references:message-id:subject:cc:to:from:date:feedback-id
:x-beenthere:x-gm-message-state:sender:from:to:cc:subject:date
:message-id:reply-to;
bh=lc/pO4KUgJIpPareAZ9ViDy1XshhxNLvxMA4zmz3hwQ=;
b=vUtwNfskEcTH7Hsy3AtS9E7wG6nGsKgZPKopFFcEk7Mgp5HojUHgboQX2iELP4naPd
U3MXED4rE+j8NTiP9DOMhM3skt/HT9tUDldcVCMh3vSfTI+8FYbplctTjja614HHwSBW
J0oOt7rmIgsVGsrQo8boCUdMhRC0HPkFoc8iWQQTgXrIJS4pqz5Ny8krWHASz8liLyN+
j/bEyPaETuPYUn85cA2R0IIIfnCaw30OVFOB8t37PrkmkSn7SN8pURvDbdTUviOiE0DG
xa22ypRg8Uz4ew8dw12W7XH2LU7whQblUtzHEE2pklKc2zz9xB8OwhiSnK6lDCZOXYHW
651Q==
Sender: bitcoindev@googlegroups.com
X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=2; AJvYcCWBLpEI3d0M3/fWZb/TSA81mlLK5/x4Hrl40b7sl4Vle+9TLYnThqHdgLApKoVFize2OzWCyXJ1zKWI@gnusha.org
X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YxlmyhWMUKJlBmdFWHYqYZHvDBFdUqKcPCM/tPbpYoIXnCcHZYe
lL6WNXS8+nfdWP6z8SO2yUx0MNamvhLipsNEtECFA/mi48cFFt7a
X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IF4kB2hvEYCQ92eKh9uvr2tDB5SB4pQliFb8v5X+FtQCy3bJF5wdFZG6reGFuvhFlHKuojS2Q==
X-Received: by 2002:a05:622a:5a08:b0:467:6486:beea with SMTP id d75a77b69052e-4702828d582mr8841411cf.38.1738708352825;
Tue, 04 Feb 2025 14:32:32 -0800 (PST)
X-BeenThere: bitcoindev@googlegroups.com
Received: by 2002:a05:622a:6096:b0:467:5016:57f9 with SMTP id
d75a77b69052e-46fdce38f77ls64975961cf.0.-pod-prod-04-us; Tue, 04 Feb 2025
14:32:29 -0800 (PST)
X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:288d:b0:7b6:ebb8:14e8 with SMTP id af79cd13be357-7c039fbb806mr64399285a.29.1738708349670;
Tue, 04 Feb 2025 14:32:29 -0800 (PST)
Received: by 2002:a05:620a:1da6:b0:7b6:dcc4:6708 with SMTP id af79cd13be357-7c02f67a624ms85a;
Tue, 4 Feb 2025 14:22:11 -0800 (PST)
X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:4623:b0:7c0:34d0:d501 with SMTP id af79cd13be357-7c039f8831bmr84165285a.22.1738707730100;
Tue, 04 Feb 2025 14:22:10 -0800 (PST)
ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; t=1738707730; cv=none;
d=google.com; s=arc-20240605;
b=SEuVfIzXT6vpMFttypb253Y57BGl89pwUw7wzCkTO+N8J3pQtzR+V5HlyL2zT9pYjx
c5uF/SDxvgdODsWDF/BxSfI4KG2Ti/j7c7YfeOeHMmUXf35P/QfCRTRGOqccaSvtNN85
psvb5y9/r+FyArzu8OYEOsha4PbAUd+Ky9C5BcsYkCjLriVs6hmUOELhP3lfDq4dW5O5
XAviThObBq2ICZCd4DYxpLWidEUfjsLVbf9sjwbOnB5hrpoIpY7fv4w7MApXacpIUZkY
G9lAvepiLTT/NfGbUaRaBHVLHDjbDtw4ZNC998SOSO4XBJp3yejaPt/1l196IB7axna6
5iTw==
ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=arc-20240605;
h=in-reply-to:content-disposition:mime-version:references:message-id
:subject:cc:to:from:date:feedback-id:dkim-signature;
bh=oe97fz9IXmA7iUwID4JKSSUISSARSX1kdAE++8F9I4Y=;
fh=5HyPAjoX9Qu8lrKcSbvwAEk6+YgBxPNZL8TnxYb/Mm4=;
b=FBO5A2Z0HfUmuPji+Mk70IOkK4NI5tj6tz3Y8o9mfg506xcMuBxZ4q/0PY+5VzAHxg
1q9PpPL3MiQplJJ1rx6T+nEao7EsBRArPNMQ8kXWl4Hzovj6MCLgBAgzkonrrHosR5HH
tZ12jFtsg8hma99KsdKZNCpbJTqeg38fmHFmWSOp3eSqf0PGcVWAA7ij5GX93cB6cOMD
fR59G0MXq1R+mgex11Tx+kyvPT2WAxelEoETZHb2bzfRbNUBbslZa4kz0r5XGE8ZE3qA
auIWd1co+oDrT/G0WjRLihsRg25xh6NGV0ErpAI8Ks88X+8am9gIxvnJ2VQnmEjnjkxT
NK4w==;
dara=google.com
ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; gmr-mx.google.com;
dkim=pass header.i=@messagingengine.com header.s=fm3 header.b=R9DwL6r7;
spf=pass (google.com: domain of pete@petertodd.org designates 103.168.172.156 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=pete@petertodd.org
Received: from fhigh-a5-smtp.messagingengine.com (fhigh-a5-smtp.messagingengine.com. [103.168.172.156])
by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id af79cd13be357-7c00a91e2d4si55486085a.7.2025.02.04.14.22.10
for <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>
(version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256);
Tue, 04 Feb 2025 14:22:10 -0800 (PST)
Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of pete@petertodd.org designates 103.168.172.156 as permitted sender) client-ip=103.168.172.156;
Received: from phl-compute-04.internal (phl-compute-04.phl.internal [10.202.2.44])
by mailfhigh.phl.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8E051140110;
Tue, 4 Feb 2025 17:22:09 -0500 (EST)
Received: from phl-mailfrontend-01 ([10.202.2.162])
by phl-compute-04.internal (MEProxy); Tue, 04 Feb 2025 17:22:09 -0500
X-ME-Sender: <xms:EJOiZ6dDpqjRoFP2mqfMziawzxI3G4QFofcPoT97488qLJwfPtL-8Q>
<xme:EJOiZ0P0fKe4aXjXwzQ8eiAPLiI4wFdo_oZZkgQMaOfrpP-3CkFz5VC3h-P1wtcZb
31T8qdsM4Lh_EeDk2w>
X-ME-Received: <xmr:EJOiZ7iKzNJdM9q9FKl_HLBKvd1vu_1rIdbnu_e2WZ-WHkRjNRasDIyfbqNqcA>
X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeefvddrtddtgddvudejvdcutefuodetggdotefrod
ftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpggftfghnshhusghstghrihgsvgdp
uffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivg
hnthhsucdlqddutddtmdenucfjughrpeffhffvvefukfhfgggtuggjsehgtderredttddv
necuhfhrohhmpefrvghtvghrucfvohguugcuoehpvghtvgesphgvthgvrhhtohguugdroh
hrgheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepteeiveeujeetleekffetveefheelleejffelleel
ieffheefhfetteehuedtuddtnecuffhomhgrihhnpeigrdgtohhmpdhpvghtvghrthhoug
gurdhorhhgpdgrrhgthhhivhgvrdhishdpghhithhhuhgsrdgtohhmpdhlihhquhhishgr
sghirdgtohhmnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrh
homhepphgvthgvsehpvghtvghrthhouggurdhorhhgpdhnsggprhgtphhtthhopedvpdhm
ohguvgepshhmthhpohhuthdprhgtphhtthhopegsihhttghoihhnuggvvhesghhoohhglh
gvghhrohhuphhsrdgtohhmpdhrtghpthhtohepnhhothhhihhnghhmuhgthhesfihoohgs
lhhinhhgrdhorhhg
X-ME-Proxy: <xmx:EJOiZ3_MOzx4hKi9Sczj1L7lHDS2MbkwRthwmPcPIzgMDG5qDBfe_A>
<xmx:EJOiZ2vwh0Im1fP_1tI3OaEHf_LhOP7OxMvowtgcqhA2ZVw5NcMLHw>
<xmx:EJOiZ-EbbGPFRw6DP-koMfRFuHF33G6IW1-qMTudFTon27bz1zq4Vw>
<xmx:EJOiZ1OWHboy5hs2FMNRehpBmHP3XM5VIoeLHS_587gkCnTVce1d5g>
<xmx:EZOiZ4XF-JrPcGxPgqQTSHiZjXb4Ciz6cZXA2s3iGYbUx9ourq9oVvwN>
Feedback-ID: i525146e8:Fastmail
Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Tue,
4 Feb 2025 17:22:08 -0500 (EST)
Received: by localhost (Postfix, from userid 1000)
id 464C69FCD2; Tue, 4 Feb 2025 22:22:07 +0000 (UTC)
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2025 22:22:07 +0000
From: Peter Todd <pete@petertodd.org>
To: Yuval Kogman <nothingmuch@woobling.org>
Cc: Bitcoin Development Mailing List <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] Reiterating centralized coinjoin (Wasabi & Samourai)
deanonymization attacks
Message-ID: <Z6KTD2vvdfsCpVDN@petertodd.org>
References: <CAAQdECCdRVV+3ZoJhOotKEvmUV4yrV7EYWE8SOWCE1CF9tZ6Yg@mail.gmail.com>
<Z5JtilN2k7HwRRXt@petertodd.org>
<CAAQdECC0FG7xhxygAPEL0XD4umU+zH84rK-P-UDKMLaZhr1HBw@mail.gmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512;
protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="eiWDiUnQqOUOZDGs"
Content-Disposition: inline
In-Reply-To: <CAAQdECC0FG7xhxygAPEL0XD4umU+zH84rK-P-UDKMLaZhr1HBw@mail.gmail.com>
X-Original-Sender: pete@petertodd.org
X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass
header.i=@messagingengine.com header.s=fm3 header.b=R9DwL6r7; spf=pass
(google.com: domain of pete@petertodd.org designates 103.168.172.156 as
permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=pete@petertodd.org
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com
List-ID: <bitcoindev.googlegroups.com>
X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512
List-Post: <https://groups.google.com/group/bitcoindev/post>, <mailto:bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>
List-Help: <https://groups.google.com/support/>, <mailto:bitcoindev+help@googlegroups.com>
List-Archive: <https://groups.google.com/group/bitcoindev
List-Subscribe: <https://groups.google.com/group/bitcoindev/subscribe>, <mailto:bitcoindev+subscribe@googlegroups.com>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:googlegroups-manage+786775582512+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com>,
<https://groups.google.com/group/bitcoindev/subscribe>
X-Spam-Score: -0.8 (/)
--eiWDiUnQqOUOZDGs
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Disposition: inline
On Tue, Feb 04, 2025 at 03:02:01PM +0100, Yuval Kogman wrote:
I'm going to split this off because this kind of thing isn't relevant to
the actual technical details of interest to readers of their mailing
list, and I'll make it easy for the mods to decide whether or not to let
this part of the discussion through.
> # Conflict of Interest
>
> It would have been appropriate for you to disclose that your review is
> paid for by an interested party as a direct response to accusations I
> have made:
The supermajority of the people posting on this mailing list are being
paid for their work. It would be silly to pre-face every single email
with "sponsored by Foo"; what you are replying to is just an email, not
my actual review publication, which I have not completed yet.
You yourself appear to be paid to work on the topic of on-chain privacy
via your employment at Spiral; I don't see you putting disclaimers about
that.
https://x.com/spiralbtc/status/1704905217974665340
For actual public publications I've made, in recent years I've generally
said who paid for them and under what terms:
https://petertodd.org/2024/one-shot-replace-by-fee-rate
https://petertodd.org/2024/covenant-dependent-layer-2-review
https://petertodd.org/2023/v3-transactions-review
https://petertodd.org/2023/drivechains#backstory
There's some other material on that blog where payment really isn't
clear to me and not discussed. E.g. material I (partly) wrote in one
form for a client and then reworked on my own time to be a blog post.
And obviously, everything I write is arguably commercial: my full-time
employment is Bitcoin-related consulting, and publishing is one of the
main ways I get work.
> - https://archive.is/cbffL
> - https://archive.is/BJCNG
>
> Kruw has described his service as "free" and "trustless", despite earning
> revenues and despite the issues described here. Supporting evidence for
> this is in the unedited version of this reply.
Wasabi set the coordinator fee limit to 0% by default in the Jun 2024
release:
https://github.com/WalletWasabi/WalletWasabi/releases/tag/v2.0.8.1
Kruw's coordinator does not charge a coordinator fee.
Due to how Wasabi coinjoins work, coinjoins will almost always have some
small amount of sats left over that didn't decompose into standard
denominations after the transaction fee is paid. Those sats go to the
coordinator. The amounts involved are tiny, always less than the
transaction fee, as you can easily see on https://liquisabi.com/
For example, b4daaefbd53dd255a4d1507889df52fe1adcc970b5edaea1d9fc2b1c840f7367,
had 31,407sats of leftovers that went to the coordinator, out of
5,459,668,967 sats of outputs and a 104,289 sat transaction fee.
31,407 / 5,459,668,967 = 0.0006%
I'll let others decide whether or not you're being dishonest by not
mentioning the tiny amounts involved, while simultanously claiming I'm
being dishonest by not mentioning in my email that (as usual) I'm
getting paid to work on this stuff.
In particular, remember that that fees are part of the coinjoin security
model: we *need* transactions to be costly enough to prevent sybil
attacks. If anyone with access to coins can just do infinite coinjoin
transactions at zero cost, we have a potential sybil attack problem.
--
https://petertodd.org 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/Z6KTD2vvdfsCpVDN%40petertodd.org.
--eiWDiUnQqOUOZDGs
Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc"
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----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=W+rh
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
--eiWDiUnQqOUOZDGs--
|
