1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
30
31
32
33
34
35
36
37
38
39
40
41
42
43
44
45
46
47
48
49
50
51
52
53
54
55
56
57
58
59
60
61
62
63
64
65
66
67
68
69
70
71
72
73
74
75
76
77
78
79
80
81
82
83
84
85
86
87
88
89
90
91
92
93
94
95
96
97
98
99
100
101
102
103
104
105
106
107
108
109
110
111
112
113
114
115
116
117
118
119
120
121
122
123
124
125
126
127
128
129
130
131
132
133
134
135
136
137
138
139
140
141
142
143
144
145
146
147
148
149
150
151
152
153
154
155
156
157
158
159
160
161
162
163
164
165
166
167
168
169
170
171
172
173
174
175
176
177
178
179
180
181
182
183
184
185
186
187
188
189
190
191
192
193
194
195
196
197
198
199
200
201
202
203
204
205
206
207
208
209
210
211
212
213
|
Delivery-date: Tue, 18 Mar 2025 14:29:37 -0700
Received: from mail-oa1-f63.google.com ([209.85.160.63])
by mail.fairlystable.org with esmtps (TLS1.3) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256
(Exim 4.94.2)
(envelope-from <bitcoindev+bncBAABBOGL467AMGQEVOCLYJQ@googlegroups.com>)
id 1tueVE-0000Pq-It
for bitcoindev@gnusha.org; Tue, 18 Mar 2025 14:29:37 -0700
Received: by mail-oa1-f63.google.com with SMTP id 586e51a60fabf-2aa17fc59d1sf5270715fac.0
for <bitcoindev@gnusha.org>; Tue, 18 Mar 2025 14:29:36 -0700 (PDT)
ARC-Seal: i=2; a=rsa-sha256; t=1742333371; cv=pass;
d=google.com; s=arc-20240605;
b=WxBLdKiPXP8njflq4VmVhfRTWth2rTcWW5gAILr1HA6FFpaNQooNpT59QKhy6CV4bf
BaaTEDx29CaODuMHMc+UGUtR96GmAHbBjBkU3FreyEM/qhgFHHLKHsAsBZzv01p1U21M
MvSu+IZyMUAQvIOaO00RakeDW2kyka1fd0p5dhmpc/g9p8M8JwgLHLqL9UsdncwkKpHm
u5YLVYN8liqRyUGhSz+GEUGD07OtB3lCe+8sY1bVLKvoAOpO7UWe64Rocm1BmHeXpk69
E/aDAJFa7MPqnXeDtodHnM4dtah0700SKqjLkcDuSmixxInHT7P0AuU3k68hXdgs1hzw
qnDw==
ARC-Message-Signature: i=2; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=arc-20240605;
h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post
:list-id:mailing-list:precedence:reply-to:mime-version:feedback-id
:references:in-reply-to:message-id:subject:cc:from:to:date
:dkim-signature;
bh=pQfPrIFbPHHLRradvFWsVp1bNR42FyLNQ2/wwqxNK5Y=;
fh=X8PV9xIcx5IxpMtI+s3ndEAi3LpFhCpwyNuQuJi+2rw=;
b=iK3Ju4ZTA44ckEXMpxaEAP+tI0Z1Ev7qSvSpW/G0yA5sobExdS0EtSrZacp1rbTMl3
R6BHHzPEb0AB7n1wHG+wYO22IQLdiVNbTawB893m4GZ6bHNXMfa3d8yG2z78bmUcwGNV
Wj3Dh6EAtysEJCdP8FUOMTAS9xQadv6PC/66AykEyeuNpMq+EKvhDa0G+OMMuGUvhhlP
bNytyOE/GS+Tvb8gpCmZD64qAeFJJrcxNaghqR1nXNKHPUBHA1w7qIMSWbeLK+vgYJYV
E0NYxdI5iwDPa5Z/ldEVs2NWTNbPkoyON24f7FkeY7aUU2cqrwkPTHOOpjOedAKLfikS
/ruA==;
darn=gnusha.org
ARC-Authentication-Results: i=2; gmr-mx.google.com;
dkim=pass header.i=@protonmail.com header.s=protonmail3 header.b=H4PLyuuP;
spf=pass (google.com: domain of moonsettler@protonmail.com designates 185.70.43.19 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=moonsettler@protonmail.com;
dmarc=pass (p=QUARANTINE sp=QUARANTINE dis=NONE) header.from=protonmail.com
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
d=googlegroups.com; s=20230601; t=1742333371; x=1742938171; darn=gnusha.org;
h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post
:list-id:mailing-list:precedence:reply-to
:x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:mime-version
:feedback-id:references:in-reply-to:message-id:subject:cc:from:to
:date:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to;
bh=pQfPrIFbPHHLRradvFWsVp1bNR42FyLNQ2/wwqxNK5Y=;
b=EPXy3FKMAUbBq5zTcbdNElOaAF+7u1cbJ3s0pW2t7KZiEoajMnTAnBx8+CeP6L328g
zMpjUdZsJBnYxycc6ixdaDJB6WMIwzxK7rYZGvs+Ys87LWkdzicvYvNqWDZdXUV500ja
kyb9IddLuM4ReDkpK4MovTuK8vgL2yXCGbnmu0LtoKpL798FV/c7w+k+0l0u/3b9nC5b
9DTqG1EDQFt7363FkA2Jk5JtmojMJyBhllJwXsLe9aYSsaTbAiTVi678lLs6pmDUcq+N
8VJGo7Omg94Ayi1PwhKsisov7FDqSnKazpm21Yy/sQMyp4Zh0cFdVNMYzPGJvD8Cjxwa
bwqw==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1742333371; x=1742938171;
h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post
:list-id:mailing-list:precedence:reply-to
:x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:mime-version
:feedback-id:references:in-reply-to:message-id:subject:cc:from:to
:date:x-beenthere:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date
:message-id:reply-to;
bh=pQfPrIFbPHHLRradvFWsVp1bNR42FyLNQ2/wwqxNK5Y=;
b=ED/7ex2VXB2Iu11MdxDCQAvSmTPdgPYUDW+oQoI/ObkgFOoN2PDasqpmtw4F7cVZIU
Zh0yc58rfGikVQ8/la8rd4PNU51a83TbwgymKF38B+sHuaUBErXlY3kzPzPb7pOEukQ/
sVq7jMX3x1ajlrBNb9/OBd0cZIs0s4h9j6jq8gax4NAXILtnMe9ABJeFeWndJx5v2BNp
xaocPGSLXybpuJT9m9sVL9Ml2eo84mEhyeL63SXWHLl4jXHEzx/UuIyhAE9Jx5AcjqjR
HoKLugfc7x5VJCpvdThIVJ8hSUpm+DQk3aWgTe+BgsjnuoKSJ1VkSak8NiN6A+zAZtzj
NTew==
X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=2; AJvYcCXdWkDAXGk/U7fLhYua9iCsv8+4rAzPLI/fDYOdNhGh0GDkm36ppz5FYJ+XufgwC6DtAZLRtVmOZiE+@gnusha.org
X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YyPlgQBqteOGvUh9zGYkp+FDvUakFBePkGx0ZcsE4XA6JPLgP4B
rKkUlojYKKiHJ8h1XP+LrjfZlqbyBStZs5dacQTqKgVTGZJBNTMZ
X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IFq03w7r9wOSVm9uaVvBg/3/9jchEQbNZqu5zWE018K+IeJ3MTey1ZDFXa813d8v0EvgLp2VQ==
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6871:550:b0:2c2:343d:1368 with SMTP id 586e51a60fabf-2c745798952mr78128fac.29.1742333371018;
Tue, 18 Mar 2025 14:29:31 -0700 (PDT)
X-BeenThere: bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; h=ARLLPAIDtZiE0wW52lntceF6NzpWYnRJE6l5eh0aSLCTsqNysw==
Received: by 2002:a05:6871:482:b0:2c2:2ed7:fb78 with SMTP id
586e51a60fabf-2c7100472f3ls375048fac.0.-pod-prod-01-us; Tue, 18 Mar 2025
14:29:28 -0700 (PDT)
X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=2; AJvYcCUty6GmMoiWG1szYLlHFOHROZqKl4Ev6Se6o2wBak6lvUqQDQdFZ25GNRH29fOQVzFyuP3VMyMG+Otc@googlegroups.com
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6808:159b:b0:3f9:a187:1f8e with SMTP id 5614622812f47-3fead5fa94amr88808b6e.29.1742333368387;
Tue, 18 Mar 2025 14:29:28 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 2002:a05:600c:1991:b0:43c:fe31:d01d with SMTP id 5b1f17b1804b1-43d42b24fbdms5e9;
Tue, 18 Mar 2025 13:30:03 -0700 (PDT)
X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=2; AJvYcCWpahDg9slUZyZJzyccLWUUQeqvqfeoDlW0J73s9Lk8wczJCa/p3t0xp7bzkC5ZtbiXHSHdH7arPY9H@googlegroups.com
X-Received: by 2002:a5d:64ab:0:b0:390:fe05:da85 with SMTP id ffacd0b85a97d-399739beceamr161202f8f.16.1742329801578;
Tue, 18 Mar 2025 13:30:01 -0700 (PDT)
ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; t=1742329801; cv=none;
d=google.com; s=arc-20240605;
b=Rx5r0RRq7xpoZ5lyEtN/nAWkBND0kGViPLBj0ucnJ+BHL2NR7b4l53smiBo5CVKxb3
lvxMsr21g61oh8FQqu/RdATr+hoZUKHvY8Jc66jXPmlskJU7qSm25OYOT0GE78XgE3u3
PlhGxVAKlekR6lGTGRAXwfoDpGXdYUUb2c+PAnbQJIrS9MC4+oDk9ZFi/+zOsx5dBWrU
xiKf+Sk4gODZCUWuSt3jftlxihLpPabt28sfd6x5Jfsumpx+4+pyzgiZcLVMLEDivwI4
2fQoWAJP95SQ8iVMEhqBhAkRh49So9uWhKotY/nc9mmzlB2Hh1QYHjlflXLzla4snWJo
4zJw==
ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=arc-20240605;
h=content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:feedback-id:references
:in-reply-to:message-id:subject:cc:from:to:date:dkim-signature;
bh=flPmhXTEZukQ+s3n0Oo56SecWIL9iJ2oej0UdlRPdnU=;
fh=OfuU2ogoD3c5tYyEKuAs9eAx6nRqhAFYyHlXd+74GZA=;
b=kTjyo20G63hz8RxTQFS8GtZh989LpVExuVqQ/tt+a0XIqWt8kos6wxTnqTg+ayPvdw
JRWoREW9YQ7z+A24YPQsai8QNF++4UViHNAQe7LHqpcDCDdaQSPwQPfXT4cVTBpQoHol
+y7OtW1TF25uWuv2hRQIpFHJG9UbvGkEvmDvzY/vCJOenzq5UkNHilsv7X3Fetj+gFgd
6XHdPeI0ru434GOFJFg0Y5lbV5xs90jsN3CODzewjT+2NstyzyRno4bmUgumJdlc4Mpy
6h3+CvszVX/+xbvYewpgz4i5PJVYQnlGRXVh9wjuh3ZPrB0zky+WSsa2F73jbc2tdURV
bj/g==;
dara=google.com
ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; gmr-mx.google.com;
dkim=pass header.i=@protonmail.com header.s=protonmail3 header.b=H4PLyuuP;
spf=pass (google.com: domain of moonsettler@protonmail.com designates 185.70.43.19 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=moonsettler@protonmail.com;
dmarc=pass (p=QUARANTINE sp=QUARANTINE dis=NONE) header.from=protonmail.com
Received: from mail-4319.protonmail.ch (mail-4319.protonmail.ch. [185.70.43.19])
by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 5b1f17b1804b1-43d1ffa3295si2524175e9.2.2025.03.18.13.30.01
for <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>
(version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256);
Tue, 18 Mar 2025 13:30:01 -0700 (PDT)
Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of moonsettler@protonmail.com designates 185.70.43.19 as permitted sender) client-ip=185.70.43.19;
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2025 20:29:57 +0000
To: Anthony Towns <aj@erisian.com.au>
From: "'moonsettler' via Bitcoin Development Mailing List" <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>
Cc: Nadav Ivgi <nadav@shesek.info>, bitcoindev@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] "Recursive covenant" with CTV and CSFS
Message-ID: <NYpEviMeuCzkq09xeaXnKDBNDLjREe-7gJEKCHw5RiOo-fFntC4Ts6ainINIYpEh8CZdcVn9nNLApxbBTIl3jxkXs2zwtwPpPuOJHlbfKpQ=@protonmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <Z9ED_dez7_UHxjK0@erisian.com.au>
References: <Z8eUQCfCWjdivIzn@erisian.com.au> <CAGXD5f3EGyUVBc=bDoNi_nXcKmW7M_-mUZ7LOeyCCab5Nqt69Q@mail.gmail.com> <Z9ED_dez7_UHxjK0@erisian.com.au>
Feedback-ID: 38540639:user:proton
X-Pm-Message-ID: aae692d24e11bc4f19e710268ea1e4c91632c399
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
X-Original-Sender: moonsettler@protonmail.com
X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass
header.i=@protonmail.com header.s=protonmail3 header.b=H4PLyuuP;
spf=pass (google.com: domain of moonsettler@protonmail.com designates
185.70.43.19 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=moonsettler@protonmail.com;
dmarc=pass (p=QUARANTINE sp=QUARANTINE dis=NONE) header.from=protonmail.com
X-Original-From: moonsettler <moonsettler@protonmail.com>
Reply-To: moonsettler <moonsettler@protonmail.com>
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com
List-ID: <bitcoindev.googlegroups.com>
X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512
List-Post: <https://groups.google.com/group/bitcoindev/post>, <mailto:bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>
List-Help: <https://groups.google.com/support/>, <mailto:bitcoindev+help@googlegroups.com>
List-Archive: <https://groups.google.com/group/bitcoindev
List-Subscribe: <https://groups.google.com/group/bitcoindev/subscribe>, <mailto:bitcoindev+subscribe@googlegroups.com>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:googlegroups-manage+786775582512+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com>,
<https://groups.google.com/group/bitcoindev/subscribe>
X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-)
Hi All,
> You could have CTV commit to two inputs, with the second input's entire
> value being burnt to fees, but that's fairly annoying
Sometimes it's annoying, other times it enables new applications, because
it can force the submitter of the transaction to contribute to the output(s).
This could serve different uses like griefing deterrent (immortal statechains)
or collect yield from blind merged mining (surfchains).
BR,
moonsettler
On Wednesday, March 12th, 2025 at 4:48 AM, Anthony Towns <aj@erisian.com.au> wrote:
> On Mon, Mar 10, 2025 at 07:14:30AM +0200, Nadav Ivgi wrote:
>
> > For some historical context, it's interesting to note that CTV originally
> > had the constexpr requirement which prevented your CSFS+CTV construct by
> > requiring the CTV hash to come from a literal push preceding the opcode
> > (i.e. not dynamically computed/pre-verified and not from the witness). This
> > was eventually removed because it was deemed an unnecessary safeguard and
> > to simplify the implementation.
>
>
> I think the original COSHV implementation had the hash appear a push after
> the CTV opcode.
> https://github.com/JeremyRubin/bips/blob/op-checkoutputshashverify/bip-coshv.mediawiki
>
> > Also, it seems that APO alone also enables the same kind of construct as
> > what you're describing. For example, a 'recursive' APO signature spending
> > back to the same address could similarly be used as the basis for a BMM
> > Spacechain.
>
>
> With either APO or CTV alone you can do an arbitrarily long chain of commitments
> (with APO|SINGLE allowing you to add an input/output for fees and change when
> using those commitments), adding CSFS and discarding the CSFS private key allows
> you to have a single commitment that can be reused indefinitely.
>
> > Here's my go at it using Minsc:
> > https://min.sc/v0.3/#gist=3aa538b384d3aaf4282d1acaf943f608
>
>
> Nice!
>
> > Note however that what you described is creating 0-fee transactions, with
> > no way to attach additional fees.
>
>
> Yes; I don't think you can do a good job of that on mutinynet with just
> CTV/CSFS, since I don't think 0-value anchor outputs are supported. (You
> could have CTV commit to two inputs, with the second input's entire
> value being burnt to fees, but that's fairly annoying)
>
> Cheers,
> aj
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/Z9ED_dez7_UHxjK0%40erisian.com.au.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/NYpEviMeuCzkq09xeaXnKDBNDLjREe-7gJEKCHw5RiOo-fFntC4Ts6ainINIYpEh8CZdcVn9nNLApxbBTIl3jxkXs2zwtwPpPuOJHlbfKpQ%3D%40protonmail.com.
|
