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Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Bitcoin Core and hard forks
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That=E2=80=99s not exactly what=E2=80=99s happened though, is it Cipher? =
Gavin put forward 20Mb then after analysis and discussion has moved to =
8Mb, whereas the other camp of core developers is firmly stuck in the =
=E2=80=981Mb or bust=E2=80=99 group.

-Rob.

> On 23 Jul 2015, at 17:50, cipher anthem via bitcoin-dev =
<bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>=20
> Why not help on a project that actually seems to offer great =
scalability like the lightning network? There have been great progress =
there.
> =20
> Seems like you did your calculations some time ago to prove that your =
increase is reasonable, yet when others come with different numbers that =
don't support your position you say it doesn't matter.
> =20
> Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2015 at 4:28 PM
> From: "Gavin Andresen via bitcoin-dev" =
<bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
> To: "Tom Harding" <tomh@thinlink.com>
> Cc: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
> Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Bitcoin Core and hard forks
> On Thu, Jul 23, 2015 at 12:17 PM, Tom Harding via bitcoin-dev =
<bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org =
<x-msg://14/bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>> wrote:
> On 7/23/2015 5:17 AM, Jorge Tim=C3=B3n via bitcoin-dev wrote:
> > they will simply advance the front and start another battle, because
> > their true hidden faction is the "not ever side". Please, Jeff, =
Gavin,
> > Mike, show me that I'm wrong on this point. Please, answer my =
question
> > this time. If "not now", then when?
>=20
> Bitcoin has all the hash power.  The merkle root has effectively
> infinite capacity.  We should be asking HOW to scale the supporting
> information propagation system appropriately, not WHEN to limit the
> capacity of the primary time-stamping machine.
>=20
> We haven't tried yet.  I can't answer for the people you asked, but
> personally I haven't thought much about when we should declare =
failure.
> =20
> Yes! Lets plan for success!
> =20
> I'd really like to move from "IMPOSSIBLE because...  (electrum hasn't =
been optimized
> (by the way: you should run on SSDs, LevelDB isn't designed for =
spinning disks),
> what if the network is attacked?  (attacked HOW???), current p2p =
network is using
> the simplest, stupidest possible block propagation algorithm...)"
> =20
> ... to "lets work together and work through the problems and scale it =
up."
> =20
> I'm frankly tired of all the negativity here; so tired of it I've =
decided to mostly ignore
> all the debate for a while, not respond to misinformation I see being =
spread
> (like "miners have some incentive to create slow-to-propagate =
blocks"),
> work with people like Tom and Mike who have a 'lets get it done' =
attitude, and
> focus on what it will take to scale up.
> =20
> --
> --
> Gavin Andresen
> =20
> _______________________________________________ bitcoin-dev mailing =
list bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org =
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev =
<https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev>__________=
_____________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">That=E2=80=99s not exactly what=E2=80=99s happened though, is =
it Cipher? Gavin put forward 20Mb then after analysis and discussion has =
moved to 8Mb, whereas the other camp of core developers is firmly stuck =
in the =E2=80=981Mb or bust=E2=80=99 group.<div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">-Rob.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On =
23 Jul 2015, at 17:50, cipher anthem via bitcoin-dev &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" =
class=3D"">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"font-family: Verdana;font-size: 12.0px;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">Why not help on a project that actually seems to offer =
great scalability like the lightning network? There have been great =
progress there.</div>

<div class=3D"">&nbsp;</div>

<div class=3D"">Seems like you did your calculations some time ago to =
prove that your increase is reasonable, yet when others come with =
different numbers that don't support your position you say it doesn't =
matter.</div>

<div class=3D"">&nbsp;
<div name=3D"quote" style=3D"margin:10px 5px 5px 10px; padding: 10px 0 =
10px 10px; border-left:2px solid #C3D9E5; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin:0 0 10px 0;" class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Sent:</b>&nbsp;Thursday, July 23, 2015 at 4:28 PM<br =
class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">From:</b>&nbsp;"Gavin Andresen via bitcoin-dev" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" =
class=3D"">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">To:</b>&nbsp;"Tom Harding" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:tomh@thinlink.com" class=3D"">tomh@thinlink.com</a>&gt;<br =
class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">Cc:</b>&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" =
class=3D"">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a><br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">Subject:</b>&nbsp;Re: [bitcoin-dev] Bitcoin Core and hard =
forks</div>

<div name=3D"quoted-content" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"gmail_extra">
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Jul 23, 2015 at 12:17 PM, Tom Harding =
via bitcoin-dev <span class=3D"">&lt;<a =
href=3D"x-msg://14/bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" =
target=3D"_parent" =
class=3D"">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>&gt;</span> wrote:

<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0 0 0 =
0.8ex;border-left: 1.0px rgb(204,204,204) solid;padding-left: =
1.0ex;"><span class=3D"">On 7/23/2015 5:17 AM, Jorge Tim=C3=B3n via =
bitcoin-dev wrote:</span><br class=3D"">
<span class=3D"">&gt; they will simply advance the front and start =
another battle, because<br class=3D"">
&gt; their true hidden faction is the "not ever side". Please, Jeff, =
Gavin,<br class=3D"">
&gt; Mike, show me that I'm wrong on this point. Please, answer my =
question</span><br class=3D"">
<span class=3D"">&gt; this time. If "not now", then when?</span><br =
class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
Bitcoin has all the hash power.&nbsp; The merkle root has effectively<br =
class=3D"">
infinite capacity.&nbsp; We should be asking HOW to scale the =
supporting<br class=3D"">
information propagation system appropriately, not WHEN to limit the<br =
class=3D"">
capacity of the primary time-stamping machine.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
We haven't tried yet.&nbsp; I can't answer for the people you asked, =
but<br class=3D"">
personally I haven't thought much about when we should declare =
failure.</blockquote>

<div class=3D"">&nbsp;</div>
</div>

<div class=3D"">Yes! Lets plan for success!</div>

<div class=3D"">&nbsp;</div>

<div class=3D"">I'd really like to move from "IMPOSSIBLE because... =
&nbsp;(electrum hasn't been optimized</div>

<div class=3D"">(by the way: you should run on SSDs, LevelDB isn't =
designed for spinning disks),</div>

<div class=3D"">what if the network is attacked? &nbsp;(attacked =
HOW???), current p2p network is using</div>

<div class=3D"">the simplest, stupidest possible block propagation =
algorithm...)"</div>

<div class=3D"">&nbsp;</div>

<div class=3D"">... to "lets work together and work through the problems =
and scale it up."</div>

<div class=3D"">&nbsp;</div>

<div class=3D"">I'm frankly tired of all the negativity here; so tired =
of it I've decided to mostly ignore</div>

<div class=3D"">all the debate for a while, not respond to =
misinformation I see being spread</div>

<div class=3D"">(like "miners have some incentive to create =
slow-to-propagate blocks"),</div>

<div class=3D"">work with people like Tom and Mike who have a 'lets get =
it done' attitude, and</div>

<div class=3D"">focus on what it will take to scale up.</div>

<div class=3D"">&nbsp;</div>
--

<div class=3D"gmail_signature">--<br class=3D"">
Gavin Andresen</div>

<div class=3D"gmail_signature">&nbsp;</div>
</div>
</div>
_______________________________________________ bitcoin-dev mailing list =
<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" =
class=3D"">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a> <a =
href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev" =
target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev<=
/a></div>
</div>
</div>
</div></div></div>
_______________________________________________<br class=3D"">bitcoin-dev =
mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" =
class=3D"">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a><br =
class=3D"">https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev<=
br class=3D""></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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