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From: Christian Moss <chrismoss411@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2021 12:38:30 +0000
Message-ID: <CANQKmgLaKisDFMGg2tOMNHmkvEtFoFfFxtm9VwOi_i-dx3Ry=w@mail.gmail.com>
To: Karl <gmkarl@gmail.com>, 
 Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
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 =?UTF-8?Q?H=C3=A9ctor_Jos=C3=A9_C=C3=A1rdenas_Pacheco?=
 <hcarpach@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Sending OP_RETURN via Bitcoin Lightning
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Hi, it is not really possible in the way you think, mainly because
lightning relies on liquidity to work, i.,e. lots of bitcoin locked up in
channels to allow liquidity, NFTs are not liquid, so if you have 1 NFT then
it would be impossible to send on the network

I think the best off chain solution to NFTs on bitcoin is using Ruben
Somsens state chain protocol, which allows you to swap utxos off chain, and
those off chain utxos could harbour an op return/nft

On Mon, Dec 6, 2021 at 10:36 AM Karl via bitcoin-dev <
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I'm not a bitcoin developer.
>
> On Mon, Dec 6, 2021, 5:05 AM H=C3=A9ctor Jos=C3=A9 C=C3=A1rdenas Pacheco =
via bitcoin-dev <
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>
>> Hello all,
>>
>> I=E2=80=99ve been thinking about how OP_RETURN is being used to create a=
nd trade
>> NFTs on Bitcoin (think RarePepes, SoG and other new ones) and was wonder=
ing
>> if it=E2=80=99s possible to
>>
>
> Do you have a link to any of these protocols?
>
> make transactions with this opcode via Lightning.
>>
>> More specific questions could be:
>>
>>    1. Can opcodes like OP_RETURN be inside a channel=E2=80=99s opening o=
r
>>    closing transaction?
>>    2. If so, could that OP_RETURN change hands within that channel or
>>    network of channels?
>>
>> OP_RETURNs do not have ownership according to the bitcoin network.  It i=
s
> not hard to define a protocol that associates an OP_RETURN with ownership=
,
> and ownership could then be transferred via lightning by sending associat=
ed
> currency via lightning.  Robustness improvements seem possible.
>
>
>>    1. If possible, could the OP_RETURN be divisible? Could one person
>>    send a piece of a OP_RETURN just like one can do right now on the pri=
mary
>>    ledger or would it need to maintain the OP_RETURN code intact?
>>
>> OP_RETURNs themselves do not have ownership, but you can define a
> protocol that gives them divisible ownership, including via lightning.
>
> I=E2=80=99m assuming that, if possible, this would need a protocol layer =
parallel
>> to Bitcoin/Lightning that stores and reads all Bitcoin transactions and =
the
>> ones which involve the node's channels as well as the ones with the
>> OP_RETURN, just like CounterParty does right now with the primary ledger=
.
>>
>> Thank in advance.
>> =E2=80=94=E2=80=94
>>
>> *H=C3=A9ctor C=C3=A1rdenas*@hcarpach
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> bitcoin-dev mailing list
>> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>>
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi, it is not really possible in the way you think, mainly=
 because lightning=C2=A0relies=C2=A0on liquidity to work, i.,e. lots of bit=
coin locked up in channels to allow liquidity, NFTs are not liquid, so if y=
ou have 1 NFT then it would be impossible to send on the network<br><br>I t=
hink the best off chain solution to NFTs on bitcoin is using Ruben Somsens =
state chain protocol, which allows you to swap utxos off chain, and those o=
ff chain utxos could harbour an op return/nft</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_=
quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Mon, Dec 6, 2021 at 10:36 A=
M Karl via bitcoin-dev &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundat=
ion.org">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blo=
ckquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left=
:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><div>Hi,</d=
iv><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">I&#39;m not a bitcoin deve=
loper.<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote" dir=3D"auto"><div dir=3D"ltr" clas=
s=3D"gmail_attr">On Mon, Dec 6, 2021, 5:05 AM H=C3=A9ctor Jos=C3=A9 C=C3=A1=
rdenas Pacheco via bitcoin-dev &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linu=
xfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a=
>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px=
 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><di=
v style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"overflow-=
wrap: break-word;"><div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;"><=
div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;">Hello all,<div><br></=
div><div>I=E2=80=99ve been thinking about how OP_RETURN is being used to cr=
eate and trade NFTs on Bitcoin (think RarePepes, SoG and other new ones) an=
d was wondering if it=E2=80=99s possible to</div></div></div></div></div></=
blockquote></div></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Do you=
 have a link to any of these protocols?</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><d=
iv dir=3D"auto"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote=
" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);=
padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div dir=3D"aut=
o" style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"overflow=
-wrap: break-word;"><div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;">=
<div> make transactions with this opcode via Lightning.</div><div><br></div=
><div>More specific questions could be:</div><div><ol><li>Can opcodes like =
OP_RETURN be inside a channel=E2=80=99s opening or closing transaction?</li=
><li>If so, could that OP_RETURN change hands within that channel or networ=
k of channels?</li></ol></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></=
div><div dir=3D"auto">OP_RETURNs do not have ownership according to the bit=
coin network.=C2=A0 It is not hard to define a protocol that associates an =
OP_RETURN with ownership, and ownership could then be transferred via light=
ning by sending associated currency via lightning.=C2=A0 Robustness improve=
ments seem possible.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><di=
v class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0=
px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><=
div style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"overflo=
w-wrap: break-word;"><div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;"=
><div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div><ol><li>If pos=
sible, could the OP_RETURN be divisible? Could one person send a piece of a=
 OP_RETURN just like one can do right now on the primary ledger or would it=
 need to maintain the OP_RETURN code intact?</li></ol></div></div></div></d=
iv></div></blockquote></div></div><div dir=3D"auto">OP_RETURNs themselves d=
o not have ownership, but you can define a protocol that gives them divisib=
le ownership, including via lightning.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><di=
v dir=3D"auto"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote"=
 style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);p=
adding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div dir=3D"auto=
" style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"overflow-=
wrap: break-word;"><div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;"><=
div>I=E2=80=99m assuming that, if possible, this would need a protocol laye=
r parallel to Bitcoin/Lightning that stores and reads all Bitcoin transacti=
ons and the ones which involve the node&#39;s channels as well as the ones =
with the OP_RETURN, just like CounterParty does right now with the primary =
ledger.</div><div><br></div><div>Thank in advance.</div></div><div>
<div>=E2=80=94=E2=80=94<br><b>H=C3=A9ctor C=C3=A1rdenas<br></b>@hcarpach</d=
iv>
</div>

<br></div></div></div>_______________________________________________<br>
bitcoin-dev mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" rel=3D"noreferrer"=
 target=3D"_blank">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev" =
rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.linuxfoundati=
on.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev</a><br>
</blockquote></div></div></div>
_______________________________________________<br>
bitcoin-dev mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank">=
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev" =
rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mail=
man/listinfo/bitcoin-dev</a><br>
</blockquote></div>

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