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Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2025 04:44:16 -0700 (PDT)
From: Saint Wenhao <saintwenhao@gmail.com>
To: Bitcoin Development Mailing List <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>
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Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] Unbreaking testnet4
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What about introducing demurrage in testnet5 consensus rules?

Testnet coins were supposed to be worthless. But it failed in both testnet3=
=20
and testnet4. In the meanwhile, signet was introduced, to make a more=20
stable test network. However, signing blocks was listed on wiki page=20
https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Prohibited_changes as something, that "Require=
=20
unanimous consent". And, as the history can tell us, people still wanted to=
=20
test mining anyway, which is why testnet3 and testnet4 have much more=20
chainwork than signet (and when it comes to signet, sending=20
signed-but-unmined blocks to the miners was never implemented, so they had=
=20
no chance to provide more hashing power).

Another kind of change on the list, that would require consent, was=20
increasing the total number of coins beyond 21 million. But then, testing=
=20
supply limits would be harder, and it could cause integer overflows in some=
=20
cases. But: in all test networks, including testnet3, testnet4, and signet,=
=20
there was never a problem of "not enough coins for miners", so that change=
=20
probably wouldn't solve any problems (and seeing it in action would take=20
years anyway; testnet4 is still far from the first halving, and it is=20
traded anyway, so that change won't fix it).

Then, we have the third option, which was not yet tried in test networks:=
=20
demurrage. There are two main options: burning coins, or re-assigning them=
=20
to someone else. To make a soft-fork out of it, re-assigning would be=20
backward-incompatible, so it is probably easier to just implement burning,=
=20
and just treat all coins older than N blocks in the same way, as OP_RETURN,=
=20
by simply invalidating transactions spending them on consensus level.

Also, when it comes to maintaining testnet nodes, if it would be possible=
=20
to automatically remove things from the UTXO set, then it would make=20
Initial Blockchain Download easier, just because new nodes wouldn't need to=
=20
synchronize everything, if old coins would be automatically invalidated. In=
=20
practice, all nodes could be just running in pruned mode all the time, and=
=20
everything beyond the pruning point, could be simply ignored on consensus=
=20
level (which would also prevent the UTXO set from exploding). And then, if=
=20
we would keep for example the last 2,016 blocks, then the whole chain would=
=20
never take more than 2016 * 4 MB =3D 8.064 GB of storage, and that's all we=
=20
would need to send during Initial Blockchain Download to other nodes.

poniedzia=C5=82ek, 31 marca 2025 o 22:50:27 UTC+2 Antoine Poinsot napisa=C5=
=82(a):

> Good point on not having the flag day on a holiday. One or two weeks=20
> sounds good to me.
>
>
>
>
> On Monday, March 24th, 2025 at 8:25 AM, Murch <mu...@murch.one> wrote:
>
> >=20
> >=20
> > Errr, I wrote the same date as you, but I meant a week later, 2026-01-0=
8
> > instead.
> >=20
> > -Murch
> >=20
> > On 2025-03-21 14:20, Murch wrote:
> >=20
> > > Hey Antoine and everyone,
> > >=20
> > > What you suggest makes sense to me. Since the 20-minute difficulty
> > > exception is now exploited perpetually, it doesn=E2=80=99t serve its =
intended
> > > purpose of allowing developers to mine themselves a few coins easily =
or
> > > confirm their own non-standard transactions. In that case, it would b=
e
> > > better to not have it at all.
> > >=20
> > > On 2025-03-18 07:29, 'Antoine Poinsot' via Bitcoin Development Mailin=
g
> > > List wrote:
> > >=20
> > > > I propose to fix this by removing the difficulty reset rule from
> > > > testnet4 through a flag day hard fork on 2026-01-01.
> > >=20
> > > I would suggest to pick a date that=E2=80=99s not a holiday in many p=
laces to
> > > avoid disrupting people=E2=80=99s holiday, how about 2026-01-01 inste=
ad?
> > >=20
> > > Cheers,
> > > Murch
> >=20
> >=20
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google=20
> Groups "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group.
> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send=
=20
> an email to bitcoindev+...@googlegroups.com.
> > To view this discussion visit=20
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/7c6800f0-7b77-4aca-a4f9-2506=
a2410b29%40murch.one
> .
>

--=20
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Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/=
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What about introducing demurrage in testnet5 consensus rules?<br /><br />Te=
stnet coins were supposed to be worthless. But it failed in both testnet3 a=
nd testnet4. In the meanwhile, signet was introduced, to make a more stable=
 test network. However, signing blocks was listed on wiki page https://en.b=
itcoin.it/wiki/Prohibited_changes as something, that "Require unanimous con=
sent". And, as the history can tell us, people still wanted to test mining =
anyway, which is why testnet3 and testnet4 have much more chainwork than si=
gnet (and when it comes to signet, sending signed-but-unmined blocks to the=
 miners was never implemented, so they had no chance to provide more hashin=
g power).<br /><br />Another kind of change on the list, that would require=
 consent, was increasing the total number of coins beyond 21 million. But t=
hen, testing supply limits would be harder, and it could cause integer over=
flows in some cases. But: in all test networks, including testnet3, testnet=
4, and signet, there was never a problem of "not enough coins for miners", =
so that change probably wouldn't solve any problems (and seeing it in actio=
n would take years anyway; testnet4 is still far from the first halving, an=
d it is traded anyway, so that change won't fix it).<br /><br />Then, we ha=
ve the third option, which was not yet tried in test networks: demurrage. T=
here are two main options: burning coins, or re-assigning them to someone e=
lse. To make a soft-fork out of it, re-assigning would be backward-incompat=
ible, so it is probably easier to just implement burning, and just treat al=
l coins older than N blocks in the same way, as OP_RETURN, by simply invali=
dating transactions spending them on consensus level.<br /><br />Also, when=
 it comes to maintaining testnet nodes, if it would be possible to automati=
cally remove things from the UTXO set, then it would make Initial Blockchai=
n Download easier, just because new nodes wouldn't need to synchronize ever=
ything, if old coins would be automatically invalidated. In practice, all n=
odes could be just running in pruned mode all the time, and everything beyo=
nd the pruning point, could be simply ignored on consensus level (which wou=
ld also prevent the UTXO set from exploding). And then, if we would keep fo=
r example the last 2,016 blocks, then the whole chain would never take more=
 than 2016 * 4 MB =3D 8.064 GB of storage, and that's all we would need to =
send during Initial Blockchain Download to other nodes.<br /><br /><div cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"auto" class=3D"gmail_attr">poniedzia=C5=82ek=
, 31 marca 2025 o=C2=A022:50:27 UTC+2 Antoine Poinsot napisa=C5=82(a):<br/>=
</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0 0 0 0.8ex; borde=
r-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">Good point on not=
 having the flag day on a holiday. One or two weeks sounds good to me.
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>On Monday, March 24th, 2025 at 8:25 AM, Murch &lt;mu...@murch.one&gt; w=
rote:
<br>
<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; Errr, I wrote the same date as you, but I meant a week later, 2026=
-01-08
<br>&gt; instead.
<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; -Murch
<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; On 2025-03-21 14:20, Murch wrote:
<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; &gt; Hey Antoine and everyone,
<br>&gt; &gt;=20
<br>&gt; &gt; What you suggest makes sense to me. Since the 20-minute diffi=
culty
<br>&gt; &gt; exception is now exploited perpetually, it doesn=E2=80=99t se=
rve its intended
<br>&gt; &gt; purpose of allowing developers to mine themselves a few coins=
 easily or
<br>&gt; &gt; confirm their own non-standard transactions. In that case, it=
 would be
<br>&gt; &gt; better to not have it at all.
<br>&gt; &gt;=20
<br>&gt; &gt; On 2025-03-18 07:29, &#39;Antoine Poinsot&#39; via Bitcoin De=
velopment Mailing
<br>&gt; &gt; List wrote:
<br>&gt; &gt;=20
<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; I propose to fix this by removing the difficulty reset r=
ule from
<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; testnet4 through a flag day hard fork on 2026-01-01.
<br>&gt; &gt;=20
<br>&gt; &gt; I would suggest to pick a date that=E2=80=99s not a holiday i=
n many places to
<br>&gt; &gt; avoid disrupting people=E2=80=99s holiday, how about 2026-01-=
01 instead?
<br>&gt; &gt;=20
<br>&gt; &gt; Cheers,
<br>&gt; &gt; Murch
<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; --
<br>&gt; You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google=
 Groups &quot;Bitcoin Development Mailing List&quot; group.
<br>&gt; To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, =
send an email to <a href data-email-masked rel=3D"nofollow">bitcoindev+...@=
googlegroups.com</a>.
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/d/msgid/bitcoindev/7c6800f0-7b77-4aca-a4f9-2506a2410b29%40murch.one" targe=
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>.
<br></blockquote></div>

<p></p>

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