1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
30
31
32
33
34
35
36
37
38
39
40
41
42
43
44
45
46
47
48
49
50
51
52
53
54
55
56
57
58
59
60
61
62
63
64
65
66
67
68
69
70
71
72
73
74
75
76
77
78
79
80
81
82
83
84
85
86
87
88
89
90
91
92
93
94
95
96
97
98
99
100
101
102
103
104
105
106
107
108
109
110
111
112
113
114
115
116
117
118
119
120
121
122
123
124
125
126
127
128
129
130
131
132
133
134
135
136
137
138
139
140
141
142
143
144
145
146
147
148
149
150
151
152
153
154
155
156
157
158
159
160
161
162
163
164
165
166
167
168
169
170
171
172
173
174
175
176
177
178
179
180
181
182
183
184
185
186
187
188
189
190
191
192
193
194
195
196
197
198
199
200
201
202
203
204
205
206
207
208
209
210
211
212
213
214
215
216
217
218
219
220
221
222
223
224
225
226
227
228
229
230
231
232
233
234
235
236
237
238
239
240
241
242
243
244
245
246
247
248
249
250
251
252
253
254
255
256
|
Received: from sog-mx-1.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com ([172.29.43.191]
helo=mx.sourceforge.net)
by sfs-ml-2.v29.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76)
(envelope-from <gubatron@gmail.com>) id 1YsUnm-0005ft-QT
for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net;
Wed, 13 May 2015 11:26:14 +0000
Received-SPF: pass (sog-mx-1.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com: domain of gmail.com
designates 209.85.213.177 as permitted sender)
client-ip=209.85.213.177; envelope-from=gubatron@gmail.com;
helo=mail-ig0-f177.google.com;
Received: from mail-ig0-f177.google.com ([209.85.213.177])
by sog-mx-1.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128)
(Exim 4.76) id 1YsUnl-00031J-MB
for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net;
Wed, 13 May 2015 11:26:14 +0000
Received: by igbpi8 with SMTP id pi8so135658243igb.1
for <bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net>;
Wed, 13 May 2015 04:26:08 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: by 10.107.31.134 with SMTP id f128mr26231838iof.19.1431516368352;
Wed, 13 May 2015 04:26:08 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Received: by 10.36.122.144 with HTTP; Wed, 13 May 2015 04:25:47 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <5553295D.6020002@olivere.de>
References: <554A91BE.6060105@bluematt.me>
<CANEZrP3wGWHdz+ut6pvke5TJJsc1rTFt8sn2KziX35oL5LAsyg@mail.gmail.com>
<CABm2gDpDvk2VsQ+mJ-BoeBKmvu9jBXNujZEFKuCStRNjFL6VOA@mail.gmail.com>
<CANEZrP2zAGCCBhNa4=9yw+A_Dn5o4SQXoPTE_qcJzZ1dFuF2tw@mail.gmail.com>
<CABm2gDqd6iHRUDKZWWTudcC1QkYa+rCuHjz7pMC2K1Db8wpgfA@mail.gmail.com>
<CANEZrP1CU0kB0vXeXUX1L8byaT-Zf2xg+3N+GeNthi_i6bn1qw@mail.gmail.com>
<CABsx9T2Nxvr4fqREMw3_LXftzsxrUAR1+9sVMa8_EpTnH1nN1Q@mail.gmail.com>
<554BA032.4040405@bluematt.me>
<CANEZrP3yM9wsSPNgpOsXDk-DjUy5PW2XuRTvK2AyCNbVJ5hZHw@mail.gmail.com>
<CADJgMzti7ROH90APiwg4NOAT5+Av=4i295b8VN0sbSLr4+WWRw@mail.gmail.com>
<CANEZrP39jWHLF02z-81Z4+9X1vH5+hMuS=-3ED81=Q1o9U=DKw@mail.gmail.com>
<554BBDA2.7040508@gmail.com>
<CAJHLa0NcxOHkrtW2=-JgfsXQJkCO8Ym7icBwMx_2RsaWcPBnTw@mail.gmail.com>
<554CCF56.3000604@gmail.com>
<CAJHLa0Mc_7OYFpxHjMGTyMNBAXUV+Y67rZMsKuZgp4mGN7fJVg@mail.gmail.com>
<5553295D.6020002@olivere.de>
From: Angel Leon <gubatron@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 13 May 2015 07:25:47 -0400
Message-ID: <CADZB0_bN9bJiwCs8j3HoUQA5ZJLncsg3rY1nAE=sgV6aSnb40w@mail.gmail.com>
To: Oliver Egginger <bitcoin@olivere.de>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11403efaa03f4d0515f4e08e
X-Spam-Score: -0.6 (/)
X-Spam-Report: Spam Filtering performed by mx.sourceforge.net.
See http://spamassassin.org/tag/ for more details.
-1.5 SPF_CHECK_PASS SPF reports sender host as permitted sender for
sender-domain
0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider
(gubatron[at]gmail.com)
-0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record
1.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message
-0.1 DKIM_VALID_AU Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from
author's domain
0.1 DKIM_SIGNED Message has a DKIM or DK signature,
not necessarily valid
-0.1 DKIM_VALID Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature
X-Headers-End: 1YsUnl-00031J-MB
Cc: Bitcoin Dev <bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net>
Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] Block Size Increase
X-BeenThere: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9
Precedence: list
List-Id: <bitcoin-development.lists.sourceforge.net>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development>,
<mailto:bitcoin-development-request@lists.sourceforge.net?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_name=bitcoin-development>
List-Post: <mailto:bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net>
List-Help: <mailto:bitcoin-development-request@lists.sourceforge.net?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development>,
<mailto:bitcoin-development-request@lists.sourceforge.net?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 May 2015 11:26:14 -0000
--001a11403efaa03f4d0515f4e08e
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
> Personally, for privacy reasons I do not want to leave a footprint in the
blockchain for each pizza. And why should this expense be good for trivial
things of everyday life?
Then what's the point?
Isn't this supposed to be an Open transactional network, it doesn't matter
if you don't want that, what matters is what people want to do with it, and
there's nothing you can do to stop someone from opening a wallet and buying
a pizza with it, except the core of the problem you ask yourself about,
which is, the minute this goes mainstream and people get their wallets out
the whole thing will collapse, regardless of what you want the blockchain
for.
Why talk about the billions of unbanked and all the romantic vision if you
can't let them use their money however they want in a decentralized
fashion. Otherwise let's just go back to centralized banking because the
minute you want to put things off chain, you need an organization that will
need to respond to government regulation and that's the end for the
billions of unbanked to be part of the network.
http://twitter.com/gubatron
On Wed, May 13, 2015 at 6:37 AM, Oliver Egginger <bitcoin@olivere.de> wrote:
> 08.05.2015 at 5:49 Jeff Garzik wrote:
> > To repeat, the very first point in my email reply was: "Agree that 7 tps
> > is too low"
>
> For interbank trading that would maybe enough but I don't know.
>
> I'm not a developer but as a (former) user and computer scientist I'm
> also asking myself what is the core of the problem? Personally, for
> privacy reasons I do not want to leave a footprint in the blockchain for
> each pizza. And why should this expense be good for trivial things of
> everyday life?
>
> If one encounters the block boundary, he or she will do more effort or
> give up. I'm thinking most people will give up because their
> transactions are not really economical. It is much better for them to
> use third-partys (or another payment system).
>
> And that's where we are at the heart of the problem. The Bitcoin
> third-party economy. With few exceptions this is pure horror. More worse
> than any used car dealer. And the community just waits that things get
> better. But that will never happen of its own accord. We are living in a
> Wild West Town. So we need a Sheriff and many other things.
>
> We need a small but good functioning economy around the blockchain. To
> create one, we have to accept a few unpleasant truths. I do not know if
> the community is ready for it.
>
> Nevertheless, I know that some companies do a good job. But they have to
> prevail against their dishonest competitors.
>
> People take advantage of the blockchain, because they no longer trust
> anyone. But this will not scale in the long run.
>
> - oliver
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> One dashboard for servers and applications across Physical-Virtual-Cloud
> Widest out-of-the-box monitoring support with 50+ applications
> Performance metrics, stats and reports that give you Actionable Insights
> Deep dive visibility with transaction tracing using APM Insight.
> http://ad.doubleclick.net/ddm/clk/290420510;117567292;y
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>
--001a11403efaa03f4d0515f4e08e
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<div dir=3D"ltr"><span style=3D"font-size:13px">> Personally, for=C2=A0<=
/span><span style=3D"font-size:13px">privacy reasons I do not want to leave=
a footprint in the blockchain for=C2=A0</span><span style=3D"font-size:13p=
x">each pizza. And =C2=A0why should this expense be good for trivial things=
of=C2=A0</span><span style=3D"font-size:13px">everyday life?<br><br>Then w=
hat's the point?<br>Isn't this supposed to be an Open transactional=
network, it doesn't matter if you don't want that, what matters is=
what people want to do with it, and there's nothing you can do to stop=
someone from opening a wallet and buying a pizza with it, except the core =
of the problem you ask yourself about, which is, the minute this goes mains=
tream and people get their wallets out the whole thing will collapse, regar=
dless of what you want the blockchain for. <br><br>Why talk about the billi=
ons of unbanked and all the romantic vision if you can't let them use t=
heir money however they want in a decentralized fashion. Otherwise let'=
s just go back to centralized banking because the minute you want to put th=
ings off chain, you need an organization that will need to respond to gover=
nment regulation and that's the end for the billions of unbanked to be =
part of the network.<br></span><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br cle=
ar=3D"all"><div><div class=3D"gmail_signature"><a href=3D"http://twitter.co=
m/gubatron" target=3D"_blank">http://twitter.com/gubatron</a><br></div></di=
v>
<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, May 13, 2015 at 6:37 AM, Oliver Eggi=
nger <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin@olivere.de" target=3D"=
_blank">bitcoin@olivere.de</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gm=
ail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-le=
ft:1ex">08.05.2015 at 5:49 Jeff Garzik wrote:<br>
> To repeat, the very first point in my email reply was: "Agree tha=
t 7 tps<br>
> is too low"<br>
<br>
For interbank trading that would maybe enough but I don't know.<br>
<br>
I'm not a developer but as a (former) user and computer scientist I'=
;m<br>
also asking myself what is the core of the problem? Personally, for<br>
privacy reasons I do not want to leave a footprint in the blockchain for<br=
>
each pizza. And why should this expense be good for trivial things of<br>
everyday life?<br>
<br>
If one encounters the block boundary, he or she will do more effort or<br>
give up. I'm thinking most people will give up because their<br>
transactions are not really economical. It is much better for them to<br>
use third-partys (or another payment system).<br>
<br>
And that's where we are at the heart of the problem. The Bitcoin<br>
third-party economy. With few exceptions this is pure horror. More worse<br=
>
than any used car dealer. And the community just waits that things get<br>
better. But that will never happen of its own accord. We are living in a<br=
>
Wild West Town. So we need a Sheriff and many other things.<br>
<br>
We need a small but good functioning economy around the blockchain. To<br>
create one, we have to accept a few unpleasant truths. I do not know if<br>
the community is ready for it.<br>
<br>
Nevertheless, I know that some companies do a good job. But they have to<br=
>
prevail against their dishonest competitors.<br>
<br>
People take advantage of the blockchain, because they no longer trust<br>
anyone. But this will not scale in the long run.<br>
<span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br>
- oliver<br>
</font></span><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5"><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
---<br>
One dashboard for servers and applications across Physical-Virtual-Cloud<br=
>
Widest out-of-the-box monitoring support with 50+ applications<br>
Performance metrics, stats and reports that give you Actionable Insights<br=
>
Deep dive visibility with transaction tracing using APM Insight.<br>
<a href=3D"http://ad.doubleclick.net/ddm/clk/290420510;117567292;y" target=
=3D"_blank">http://ad.doubleclick.net/ddm/clk/290420510;117567292;y</a><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Bitcoin-development mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net">Bitcoin-develo=
pment@lists.sourceforge.net</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development=
" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-de=
velopment</a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>
--001a11403efaa03f4d0515f4e08e--
|
