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From: Jeremy Rubin <jeremy.l.rubin@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2022 16:36:46 -0800
Message-ID: <CAD5xwhgvW_ATpWuMv1fF6hhjTyp8imkxfAY1CcCvYk1AwgqfhA@mail.gmail.com>
To: Bitcoin development mailing list <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
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Subject: [bitcoin-dev] Meeting Summary & Logs for CTV Meeting #5
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Logs here: https://gnusha.org/ctv-bip-review/2022-03-08.log

Notes:

1) Sapio Updates

Sapio has Experimental Taproot Support now.
See logs for how to help.
Rust-bitcoin can also use your help reviewing, e.g.
https://github.com/rust-bitcoin/rust-miniscript/pull/305
Adding MuSig support for the oracle servers would be really cool, if
someone wants a challenge.

2) Transaction Sponsors

What sponsors are vs. RBF/CPFP.
Why there's not a BIP # assigned (despite it being written up as a BIP+impl
in
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2020-September/018168.html,
should only get a number if it seems like people agree).

3) James' Vaults Post

James' vaults are similar to prior art on recursive CTV vaults (Kanzure's /
Jeremy's), where the number of steps = 1.
Actually ends up being a very good design for many custody purposes, might
be a good "80% of the benefit 20% of the work" type of thing.
People maybe want different things out of vaults... how customizable must
it be?

4) Mailing list be poppin'

Zmn shared a prepared remark which spurred a nice conversation.
General sentiment that we should be careful adding crazy amounts of power,
with great power comes great responsibility...
Maybe we shouldn't care though -- don't send to scripts you don't like?
Math is scary -- you can do all sorts of bizarre stuff with more power
(e.g., what if you made an EVM inside a bitcoin output).
Things like OP_EVICT should be bounded by design.
Problem X: Infrastructure issue for all more flexible covenants:
   1) generate a transition function you would like
   2) compile it into a script covenant
   3) request the transition/txn you want to have happen
    4) produce a satisifaction of the script covenant for that transaction
   5) prove the transition function *is* what you wanted/secure
Quantifying how hard X is for a given proposal is a good idea.
You can prototype covenants with federations in Sapio pretty easily... more
people should try this!

5) General discuss
People suck at naming things... give things more unique names for protocols!
Jeremy will name something the Hot Tub Coin Machine
Some discussion on forking, if theres any kind of consensus forming, doing
things like
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2021-April/018833.html
How much does a shot-on-goal cost / unforced errors of not making an
activating client available precluding being able to activate
luke-jr: never ST; ST is a reason enough to oppose CTV
jamesob: <javascript> OP_DOTHETHING

best,

Jeremy

--
@JeremyRubin <https://twitter.com/JeremyRubin>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,he=
lvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000">Logs here:=C2=A0<a href=
=3D"https://gnusha.org/ctv-bip-review/2022-03-08.log" target=3D"_blank">htt=
ps://gnusha.org/ctv-bip-review/2022-03-08.log</a></div><div class=3D"gmail_=
default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;co=
lor:#000000"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:ar=
ial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000">Notes:</div><div cl=
ass=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-=
size:small;color:#000000"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"f=
ont-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000">1) Sap=
io Updates</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,hel=
vetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000"><br></div><div class=3D"gm=
ail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:smal=
l;color:#000000">Sapio has Experimental Taproot Support now.</div><div clas=
s=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-si=
ze:small;color:#000000">See logs for how to help.</div><div class=3D"gmail_=
default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;co=
lor:#000000">Rust-bitcoin can also use your help reviewing, e.g.=C2=A0<a hr=
ef=3D"https://github.com/rust-bitcoin/rust-miniscript/pull/305" dir=3D"auto=
" rel=3D"noopener" style=3D"box-sizing:inherit;text-decoration:none;font-fa=
mily:-apple-system,system-ui,&quot;Segoe UI&quot;,Roboto,Ubuntu,Cantarell,&=
quot;Noto Sans&quot;,sans-serif,BlinkMacSystemFont,&quot;Helvetica Neue&quo=
t;,Arial;font-size:14px;white-space:pre-wrap" target=3D"_blank">https://git=
hub.com/rust-bitcoin/rust-miniscript/pull/305</a></div><div class=3D"gmail_=
default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;co=
lor:#000000">Adding MuSig support for the oracle servers would be really co=
ol, if someone wants a challenge.</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=
=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000"><=
br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,=
sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000">2) Transaction Sponsors</div><div=
 class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;fo=
nt-size:small;color:#000000"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=
=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000">W=
hat sponsors are vs. RBF/CPFP.</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"f=
ont-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000">Why th=
ere&#39;s not a BIP # assigned (despite it being written up as a BIP+impl i=
n=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2=
020-September/018168.html" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.linuxfoundation.=
org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2020-September/018168.html</a>, should only get a=
 number if it seems like people agree).</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" s=
tyle=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#00000=
0"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvet=
ica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000">3) James&#39; Vaults Post</di=
v><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-se=
rif;font-size:small;color:#000000"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" s=
tyle=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#00000=
0">James&#39; vaults are similar to prior art on recursive CTV vaults (Kanz=
ure&#39;s / Jeremy&#39;s), where the number of steps =3D 1.</div><div class=
=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-siz=
e:small;color:#000000">Actually ends up being a very good design for many c=
ustody purposes, might be a good &quot;80% of the benefit 20% of the work&q=
uot; type of thing.</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:=
arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000">People maybe want=
 different things out of vaults... how=C2=A0customizable must it be?</div><=
div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif=
;font-size:small;color:#000000"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" styl=
e=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000">=
4) Mailing list be poppin&#39;</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"f=
ont-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000"><br></=
div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-=
serif;font-size:small;color:#000000">Zmn shared a prepared remark which spu=
rred a nice conversation.</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-f=
amily:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000">General sen=
timent that we should be careful adding crazy amounts of power, with great =
power comes great responsibility...</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=
=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000">M=
aybe we shouldn&#39;t care though -- don&#39;t send to scripts you don&#39;=
t like?</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvet=
ica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000">Math is scary -- you can do a=
ll sorts of bizarre stuff with more power (e.g., what if you made an EVM in=
side a bitcoin output).</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-fam=
ily:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000">Things like O=
P_EVICT should be bounded by design.</div><span class=3D"gmail_default" sty=
le=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,=
0)">Problem X: Infrastructure </span>issue <span class=3D"gmail_default" st=
yle=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0=
,0)">for all more flexible covenants</span>:<div><span class=3D"gmail_defau=
lt" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:r=
gb(0,0,0)"> =C2=A0 =C2=A0</span>1) generate a transition function you would=
 like</div><div><span class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,he=
lvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"> =C2=A0 =C2=A0</span>2=
) compile it into a script covenant</div><div><span class=3D"gmail_default"=
 style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(=
0,0,0)"> =C2=A0 =C2=A0</span>3) request the transition<span class=3D"gmail_=
default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;co=
lor:rgb(0,0,0)">/txn</span> you want <span class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D=
"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)">t=
o have happen</span></div><div><span class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-=
family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)">=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 </span>4) produce a satisifaction of the script covenant<span class=
=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-siz=
e:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"> for that transaction</span></div><div><span clas=
s=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-si=
ze:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"> =C2=A0 =C2=A0</span>5) prove the transition fun=
ction *is* what you wanted/secure</div><div><div class=3D"gmail_default" st=
yle=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0=
,0)">Quantifying how hard X is for a given proposal is a good idea.</div><d=
iv class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;=
font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)">You can prototype covenants with federati=
ons in Sapio pretty easily... more people should try this!</div><div class=
=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-siz=
e:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"f=
ont-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)">5) =
General discuss</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:aria=
l,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)">People suck at nam=
ing things... give things more unique names for protocols!</div><div class=
=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-siz=
e:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)">Jeremy will name something the Hot Tub Coin Machi=
ne</div><div class=3D"gmail_default"><font color=3D"#000000" face=3D"arial,=
 helvetica, sans-serif">Some discussion=C2=A0</font>on forking, if theres a=
ny kind of consensus forming, doing things like <a href=3D"https://lists.li=
nuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2021-April/018833.html">https://lis=
ts.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2021-April/018833.html</a></di=
v><div class=3D"gmail_default">How much does a shot-on-goal cost / unforced=
 errors of not making an activating client available precluding being able =
to activate<br>luke-jr: never ST; ST is a reason enough to oppose CTV<br>ja=
mesob: &lt;javascript&gt; OP_DOTHETHING</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_defa=
ult"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default">best,</div><div class=3D"gmail_=
default"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default">Jeremy</div><br clear=3D"al=
l"><div><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_=
signature"><div dir=3D"ltr">--<br><a href=3D"https://twitter.com/JeremyRubi=
n" target=3D"_blank">@JeremyRubin</a><br></div></div></div></div>

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