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From: Marcel Jamin <marcel@jamin.net>
Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2017 07:29:16 +0100
Message-ID: <CAAUq487S-rvt+fee4961ACyVYaHb=7f2TqppoVO=_WdHfYEExw@mail.gmail.com>
To: John Hardy <john@seebitcoin.com>, 
	Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
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Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Unique node identifiers
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> This could even come in the form of a Bitcoin address.

Wouldn't this actually *need* to be a bitcoin address that is included in a
block to get any real assurances about the age if this node id? Otherwise
malicous nodes could lie and claim to have seen a brand new node id years
ago already.

Even if included in a block, people could sell their aged IDs (if we were
to rely on those for anything).

Also funding that ID address would might tie your economic activity (or
even identity) to a node.

On 4 March 2017 at 17:04, John Hardy via bitcoin-dev <
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:

> The discussion of UASF got me thinking about whether such a method might
> lead to sybil attacks, with new nodes created purely to inflate the node
> count for a particular implementation in an attempt at social engineering=
.
>
> I had an idea for an anonymous, opt-in, unique node identification
> mechanism to help counter this.
>
> This would give every node the opportunity to create a node
> =E2=80=98address=E2=80=99/unique identifier. This could even come in the =
form of a Bitcoin
> address.
>
> The node on first installation generates and backs up a private key. The
> corresponding public key becomes that node=E2=80=99s unique identifier. I=
f the node
> switches to a new software version or a new IP, the identifier can remain
> constant if the node operator chooses.
>
> Asking a node for its identifier can be done by sending a message the
> command =E2=80=98identify=E2=80=99 and a challenge. The node can then res=
pond with its
> unique identifier and a signature for the challenge to prove it. The node
> can also include what software it is running and sign this information so
> it can be verified as legitimate by third parties.
>
> Why would we do this?
>
> Well, it adds a small but very useful piece of data when compiling lists
> of active nodes.
>
> Any register of active nodes can have a record of when a node identifier
> was =E2=80=9Cfirst seen=E2=80=9D, and how many IPs the same identifier ha=
s broadcast from.
> Also, crucially, we could see what software the node operator has been se=
en
> running historically.
>
> This information would make it easy to identify patterns. For example if =
a
> huge new group of nodes appeared on the network with no history for their
> identifier they could likely be dismissed as sybil attacks. If a huge
> number of nodes that had been reporting as Bitcoin Core for an extended
> period of time started switching to a rival implementation, this would ad=
d
> credibility but not certainty (keys could be traded), that the shift was
> more organic.
>
> This would be trivial to implement, is (to me?) non-controversial, and
> would give a way for a node to link itself to a pseudo-anonymous identity=
,
> but with the freedom to opt-out at any time.
>
> Keen to hear any thoughts?
>
> Thanks,
>
> John Hardy
>
> john@seebitcoin.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:monospac=
e,monospace;font-size:small;color:rgb(12,52,61)">&gt;=C2=A0<span style=3D"c=
olor:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial;font-size:14.6667px;white-space:pre-wrap"=
>This could even come in the form of a Bitcoin address.</span></div><div cl=
ass=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:monospace,monospace;font-size:sm=
all;color:rgb(12,52,61)"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial;=
font-size:14.6667px;white-space:pre-wrap"><br></span></div><div class=3D"gm=
ail_default" style=3D"font-family:monospace,monospace;font-size:small;color=
:rgb(12,52,61)"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial;font-size=
:14.6667px;white-space:pre-wrap">Wouldn&#39;t this actually *need* to be a =
bitcoin address that is included in a block to get any real assurances abou=
t the age if this node id? Otherwise malicous nodes could lie and claim to =
have seen a brand new node id years ago already.</span></div><div class=3D"=
gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:monospace,monospace;font-size:small;col=
or:rgb(12,52,61)"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial;font-si=
ze:14.6667px;white-space:pre-wrap"><br></span></div><div class=3D"gmail_def=
ault" style=3D"font-family:monospace,monospace;font-size:small;color:rgb(12=
,52,61)"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial;font-size:14.666=
7px;white-space:pre-wrap">Even if included in a block, people could sell th=
eir aged IDs (if we were to rely on those for anything).</span></div><div c=
lass=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:monospace,monospace;font-size:s=
mall;color:rgb(12,52,61)"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial=
;font-size:14.6667px;white-space:pre-wrap"><br></span></div><div class=3D"g=
mail_default" style=3D"font-family:monospace,monospace;font-size:small;colo=
r:rgb(12,52,61)"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial;font-siz=
e:14.6667px;white-space:pre-wrap">Also funding that ID address would might =
tie your economic activity (or even identity) to a node.</span></div></div>=
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 4 March 2017 a=
t 17:04, John Hardy via bitcoin-dev <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank">bitcoin-dev@lists=
.linuxfoundation.org</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_qu=
ote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex=
">




<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div id=3D"m_4495502098626100444divtagdefaultwrapper" style=3D"font-size:12=
pt;color:#000000;font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif" dir=3D"ltr=
">
<p><span id=3D"m_4495502098626100444docs-internal-guid-1be5245f-9a0e-19aa-b=
d44-cdeb0d05121c"></span></p>
<p dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt">=
<span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial;background-color:transparen=
t;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">The discussion of UASF got =
me thinking about whether such
 a method might lead to sybil attacks, with new nodes created purely to inf=
late the node count for a particular implementation in an attempt at social=
 engineering.</span></p>
<br>
<p dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt">=
<span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial;background-color:transparen=
t;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">I had an idea for an anonym=
ous, opt-in, unique node identification
 mechanism to help counter this.</span></p>
<br>
<p dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt">=
<span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial;background-color:transparen=
t;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">This would give every node =
the opportunity to create a
 node =E2=80=98address=E2=80=99/unique identifier. This could even come in =
the form of a Bitcoin address.</span></p>
<br>
<p dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt">=
<span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial;background-color:transparen=
t;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">The node on first installat=
ion generates and backs up
 a private key. The corresponding public key becomes that node=E2=80=99s un=
ique identifier. If the node switches to a new software version or a new IP=
, the identifier can remain constant if the node operator chooses.</span></=
p>
<br>
<p dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt">=
<span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial;background-color:transparen=
t;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">Asking a node for its ident=
ifier can be done by sending
 a message the command =E2=80=98identify=E2=80=99 and a challenge. The node=
 can then respond with its unique identifier and a signature for the challe=
nge to prove it. The node can also include what software it is running and =
sign this information so it can be verified as legitimate
 by third parties.</span></p>
<br>
<p dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt">=
<span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial;background-color:transparen=
t;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">Why would we do this?</span=
></p>
<br>
<p dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt">=
<span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial;background-color:transparen=
t;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">Well, it adds a small but v=
ery useful piece of data when
 compiling lists of active nodes.</span></p>
<br>
<p dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt">=
<span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial;background-color:transparen=
t;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">Any register of active node=
s can have a record of when
 a node identifier was =E2=80=9Cfirst seen=E2=80=9D, and how many IPs the s=
ame identifier has broadcast from. Also, crucially, we could see what softw=
are the node operator has been seen running historically.</span></p>
<br>
<p dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt">=
<span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial;background-color:transparen=
t;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">This information would make=
 it easy to identify patterns.
 For example if a huge new group of nodes appeared on the network with no h=
istory for their identifier they could likely be dismissed as sybil attacks=
. If a huge number of nodes that had been reporting as Bitcoin Core for an =
extended period of time started
 switching to a rival implementation, this would add credibility but not ce=
rtainty (keys could be traded), that the shift was more organic.</span></p>
<br>
<p dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt">=
<span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial;background-color:transparen=
t;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">This would be trivial to im=
plement, is (to me?) non-controversial,
 and would give a way for a node to link itself to a pseudo-anonymous ident=
ity, but with the freedom to opt-out at any time.</span></p>
<br>
<p dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt">=
<span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial;background-color:transparen=
t;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">Keen to hear any thoughts?<=
/span></p>
<br>
<p dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt">=
<span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial;background-color:transparen=
t;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">Thanks,</span></p>
<br>
<p dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt">=
<span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial;background-color:transparen=
t;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">John Hardy</span></p>
<p dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt">=
<span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial;background-color:transparen=
t;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap"><a href=3D"mailto:john@seeb=
itcoin.com" target=3D"_blank">john@seebitcoin.com</a></span></p>

<p></p>
</div>
</div>

<br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
bitcoin-dev mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org">bitcoin-dev@lists.=
<wbr>linuxfoundation.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev" =
rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.linuxfoundation.<wbr>org=
/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-<wbr>dev</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div>

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