1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
30
31
32
33
34
35
36
37
38
39
40
41
42
43
44
45
46
47
48
49
50
51
52
53
54
55
56
57
58
59
60
61
62
63
64
65
66
67
68
69
70
71
72
73
74
75
76
77
78
79
80
81
82
83
84
85
86
87
88
89
90
91
92
93
94
95
96
97
98
99
100
101
102
103
104
105
106
107
108
109
110
111
112
113
114
115
116
117
118
119
120
121
122
123
124
125
126
127
128
129
130
131
132
133
134
135
136
137
138
139
140
141
142
143
144
145
146
147
148
149
150
151
152
153
154
155
156
157
158
159
160
161
162
163
164
165
166
167
168
169
170
171
172
173
174
175
176
177
178
179
180
181
182
183
184
185
186
187
188
189
190
191
192
193
194
195
196
197
198
199
200
201
202
203
204
205
206
207
208
209
210
211
212
213
214
215
216
217
218
219
220
221
222
223
224
225
226
227
228
229
230
231
232
233
|
Delivery-date: Fri, 02 May 2025 15:25:20 -0700
Received: from mail-qt1-f183.google.com ([209.85.160.183])
by mail.fairlystable.org with esmtps (TLS1.3) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256
(Exim 4.94.2)
(envelope-from <bitcoindev+bncBDRYHVHZTUGRBRUM2XAAMGQENRJ2A6Q@googlegroups.com>)
id 1uAyop-0003S0-Hc
for bitcoindev@gnusha.org; Fri, 02 May 2025 15:25:20 -0700
Received: by mail-qt1-f183.google.com with SMTP id d75a77b69052e-4769273691dsf44546351cf.1
for <bitcoindev@gnusha.org>; Fri, 02 May 2025 15:25:19 -0700 (PDT)
ARC-Seal: i=2; a=rsa-sha256; t=1746224713; cv=pass;
d=google.com; s=arc-20240605;
b=WDYfmFO2vBfe0A8697rTLRRcxfe9CcwVxHY6c11eeB7yHZWzEZnW4o2Isgvs6vOyxK
slz0pX2UwOyRPKf8D8nqr7xSxnwc4HTUhJ8NiSKDoV0JwrpC4p02ncqLCzlYfA/8GfvU
RmTUhGD6UJUljYRA8KdNAzki2QNHjqVB0ouQnDqs35B0GGzK2z0VWt/hU6sUOK++GEte
YYaXRFBDPApaZJVjnG/S6Cm7mZQeD1m3M99rKa5nTdwuz+d5KYClCIgM08kWw21dKA6i
RzWGH67R/uY3s9ld7l3igqv1nDCLutEKNuIObYwipmihdgKEiYnhSMP2+vEdtJOhtksN
firw==
ARC-Message-Signature: i=2; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=arc-20240605;
h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post
:list-id:mailing-list:precedence:in-reply-to:content-disposition
:mime-version:references:message-id:subject:cc:to:from:date
:feedback-id:sender:dkim-signature;
bh=cdm6whRqg1EgRyotTgQBfHHTLPczq3BGqRWuYAEwOjs=;
fh=m8VM4B1eXpnJOiXXhdh4h4ACKp6hgNSxPyzBf4RwnXU=;
b=KdW2XDnSd+W2l8Fc03B0AQbrWlUGdA+YAQ5QqVwT1Hy6/8zv/Ykcw+faTYfYjWTRSS
d2C2BHdJo2tPLZboKUCDgYcra9T9wf8BmmOA/PUSK4d4EzBy2klSjP1MFAyVCEXAisrt
lGXPGbNuP5c2Hx8nVUQN5fFFLH9ZbPDysq/78swta98MMJ+zheGm0wo8j8fK+EHD8VZF
OoQhvdQNbmrW2mWumMKvgQjAzFwiYWWrCSmLi5BOlAQ8wWlcdi5vKf3Ro2GgNzQh3v1r
mh42la8i0ROi7nG+hdg3un+0eGHf+3+i0wCTTSdl4IKYScg/weQ+Ud1I5LNxVJu3K1vO
ExiQ==;
darn=gnusha.org
ARC-Authentication-Results: i=2; gmr-mx.google.com;
dkim=pass header.i=@messagingengine.com header.s=fm3 header.b="KLEL/1IH";
spf=pass (google.com: domain of pete@petertodd.org designates 202.12.124.153 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=pete@petertodd.org
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
d=googlegroups.com; s=20230601; t=1746224713; x=1746829513; darn=gnusha.org;
h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post
:list-id:mailing-list:precedence:x-original-authentication-results
:x-original-sender:in-reply-to:content-disposition:mime-version
:references:message-id:subject:cc:to:from:date:feedback-id:sender
:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to;
bh=cdm6whRqg1EgRyotTgQBfHHTLPczq3BGqRWuYAEwOjs=;
b=AkH5K3RsLOyEz5UFLF8aAimKS1OV8w0LP4+uMlQUUkyoE56SFN5sfJC8ejniQAq3CG
uIPSOYDp7wTRG5mC6ewOnFny2iZPF3BlXSUJDJ8mwwNmR/EISWJCeePVqdauA7J5rDCY
fYlDye+AY1YkVpaxbasVtktxvSFXLNnDUANxjQms0uq2ItOttxjcuU7WjmbyXN39J0da
sCSK6fbvaZIOeaGNArdaFIfBwgtpsLQJa8YiiAlHZU73PocSxYIS7XOAjuqOt+RBUHX6
QMcx0pxo7uRC0u5I9MkgW4pGfF+yGtrTf1iFx60ywW9snR0swxEJHn1c+EJ2UQJW2Yo3
UdkQ==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1746224713; x=1746829513;
h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post
:list-id:mailing-list:precedence:x-original-authentication-results
:x-original-sender:in-reply-to:content-disposition:mime-version
:references:message-id:subject:cc:to:from:date:feedback-id
:x-beenthere:x-gm-message-state:sender:from:to:cc:subject:date
:message-id:reply-to;
bh=cdm6whRqg1EgRyotTgQBfHHTLPczq3BGqRWuYAEwOjs=;
b=a2C+VE4iL0dsdL5S2IG2t+5r40atJfoRkEXrokNTOehuyZw4hRsZ8nYMwxExPTVwpU
e3nvZVHCMW/3f0saeiRoxOi22pNrYUaZ4imbnQnkgzoJFAJzBJygq+XqGTrq1IfQTTQf
A8nNjZYwhqRTQBqZNUhFEWzl3u1TVQkNBfq1zaGoccw9tgeKUSh5P0vcjJsg9v8sYjzK
HvwOvWlOVysRPVJiOBRKGT/SStf7ClNUcf7oVf3BNGt3GEl9ZbcDgdEiqO0F3aycmheP
rYRpZrMflelZXhWMlD8lLE3BElDkGKE8GYqAV4z3NQ3SEKwTtT3KpJ+HXe9LxHiSjD0l
EbBg==
Sender: bitcoindev@googlegroups.com
X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=2; AJvYcCWxo4o0ic5U8FbzoxXIikwBMo5iGi+M4hZVcc0sQDcbwcuQSDBZJEODfrOVJ1L39h2yKpcMLPYUhjwG@gnusha.org
X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YyMvJJCCZIbGa/4WwEuWXEVScBbKZ4Y1Nu+sCanimKkwEP+fPlS
hI+e24QKzrbjgN9IwnRojEYo/3r3FDXCyoCdkLcgZlNoVInRsJ3C
X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IEd2BuQwDUdB3si2Id6elX2ToXsPxQAw1zukCoaQcH6SVnp9ER5sa5nwKCzJKakr0Eu2DrlyQ==
X-Received: by 2002:a05:622a:1ccf:b0:48b:448c:f738 with SMTP id d75a77b69052e-48c30d7e097mr69516091cf.1.1746224713237;
Fri, 02 May 2025 15:25:13 -0700 (PDT)
X-BeenThere: bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; h=AVT/gBEie1UKVhZmKEwaAFsnAdDdh6yn+ZPrf+6cBD1WsAs3Hg==
Received: by 2002:a05:622a:a019:b0:481:d765:2e0e with SMTP id
d75a77b69052e-48ad89b7041ls37899671cf.1.-pod-prod-07-us; Fri, 02 May 2025
15:25:10 -0700 (PDT)
X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=2; AJvYcCUmdoNYZN5x+5+rxzFKq9J/DoaRLfIvL/L084RAVCrv18bgIlI2gnwwqt/YvaIOypBM6tii1VzdyvCY@googlegroups.com
X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:298d:b0:7ca:cb02:793c with SMTP id af79cd13be357-7cad5b25023mr672519985a.3.1746224710156;
Fri, 02 May 2025 15:25:10 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 2002:a05:620a:3602:b0:7b6:d2da:e6ae with SMTP id af79cd13be357-7cad5cae937ms85a;
Fri, 2 May 2025 13:43:21 -0700 (PDT)
X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=2; AJvYcCUX/JiZyGqL4AXOnLn0wTyV1soN3xYtQ23K8zFrpN8ZQAo8cnWyod+8HZDbiq6zWgn9JuYk5l1I8z6g@googlegroups.com
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6102:5716:b0:4c1:9526:a636 with SMTP id ada2fe7eead31-4dafb545cd7mr3360989137.15.1746218599998;
Fri, 02 May 2025 13:43:19 -0700 (PDT)
ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; t=1746218599; cv=none;
d=google.com; s=arc-20240605;
b=BYk0mnTGoTuaDthXCZ7cXwAiMTnKybG3zsJPOo/+/em0xS3tFvLstBOsuD6p63xYdz
vRd58EFW93o+8OTMUEn+LGNeqlVV7c1jKAFWvTVWpXVW3XepeAsyI3xavXF8PYgvmJtd
tAaXOoO1XjqIGTCsRBZDW8ItDl8ztqRab9tgyytOzLh4Bln/TKweg2XERurnkGwwwWL2
ijPwSUfUD0JNMAPccEexgfI6pV3VYJjcKhADAIhu89yD6fSv1drnydL/ZWQFTi1Jv3ml
qMV+SAaYWXfv5rGXP/Th0sRt34LFYBnJRzCHXXitZLe8BtM5zHyXd4TtssSNiOv2f+bG
Rx+Q==
ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=arc-20240605;
h=in-reply-to:content-disposition:mime-version:references:message-id
:subject:cc:to:from:date:feedback-id:dkim-signature;
bh=/nIvBpB/b2gOChIFEUjYEhpTw0ZfgsKymAXz63k51Go=;
fh=qRm7qsc/Pw8KMnluGK3DF8Q+O2QBdfvyIHD5+M9AURI=;
b=fYb1IX0raZLqRoaFTB82kJUHAF7+oLwhZLsR3NH9TXB06ParPj30Lf1Ug+HuoKuC1p
ENRlwktEKbYtCTyxPIm6YIVnOfZAkIn8WzX6E1CYq1yMhno7TQqBj3hCJmYINXX1vRYW
BHwu7x+lti4OcYQKoPLsEdSI6wSC3CqPrjYAvhWd9s5e55sDtJDemF2LrGA9CAMFUjHz
xdIn2I2ygXBG3cTuanZ5GbNC/sYhRaQsMKboSTotmEEeleWjiQNeRvrZcWsZrGa8hFvb
Nl3jAS32Z5bRjqsdzsrbaY1Bjv4ijjM5ugv3I45dYOLCyWPDp3ytMWveMKcoj9LcwbqM
1BGA==;
dara=google.com
ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; gmr-mx.google.com;
dkim=pass header.i=@messagingengine.com header.s=fm3 header.b="KLEL/1IH";
spf=pass (google.com: domain of pete@petertodd.org designates 202.12.124.153 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=pete@petertodd.org
Received: from fhigh-b2-smtp.messagingengine.com (fhigh-b2-smtp.messagingengine.com. [202.12.124.153])
by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 71dfb90a1353d-52ae4025c67si194472e0c.2.2025.05.02.13.43.19
for <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>
(version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256);
Fri, 02 May 2025 13:43:19 -0700 (PDT)
Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of pete@petertodd.org designates 202.12.124.153 as permitted sender) client-ip=202.12.124.153;
Received: from phl-compute-11.internal (phl-compute-11.phl.internal [10.202.2.51])
by mailfhigh.stl.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4ECCF25401E4;
Fri, 2 May 2025 16:43:19 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from phl-mailfrontend-02 ([10.202.2.163])
by phl-compute-11.internal (MEProxy); Fri, 02 May 2025 16:43:19 -0400
X-ME-Sender: <xms:Zi4VaHFAGAo5YGXaiE9aJMqN5BOiiXNGUmt59iINxqy-h2SuG2rSVw>
<xme:Zi4VaEUSW8RV8IxuT-B9kQOvnszUap1ISzShIcwLn0kFSxGLJGMQcz9-ZEE0_cYO0
jAtysrnWwV2RZ9DCYU>
X-ME-Received: <xmr:Zi4VaJIdLRKMjLLQi-2oxd7evP7HdtVxEf92yYgHF7L2Bu7-y26KLhdg5LcXdMGwoD5KJOLod7LjrFip5B62tzAFxlA>
X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeefvddrtddtgddvjeefgeegucetufdoteggodetrf
dotffvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdggtfgfnhhsuhgsshgtrhhisggv
pdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgenuceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpih
gvnhhtshculddquddttddmnecujfgurhepfffhvfevuffkfhggtggujgesghdtreertddt
vdenucfhrhhomheprfgvthgvrhcuvfhougguuceophgvthgvsehpvghtvghrthhouggurd
horhhgqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpeelvdellefftddukeduffejgfefjeeuheeileef
tdfgteduteeggeevueethfejtdenucffohhmrghinhepphgvthgvrhhtohguugdrohhrgh
enucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehpvght
vgesphgvthgvrhhtohguugdrohhrghdpnhgspghrtghpthhtohepfedpmhhouggvpehsmh
htphhouhhtpdhrtghpthhtoheprghjsegvrhhishhirghnrdgtohhmrdgruhdprhgtphht
thhopehgmhgrgiifvghllhesghhmrghilhdrtghomhdprhgtphhtthhopegsihhttghoih
hnuggvvhesghhoohhglhgvghhrohhuphhsrdgtohhm
X-ME-Proxy: <xmx:Zi4VaFEvQmn7l_80G9A90I3vKNMMXKWSrik99LlmJXXCqlvCfpatQQ>
<xmx:Zi4VaNWvoGDJbAihO5N4xc4GS24WYhUFR6Tp3w3axd6b-p2NOslJ9Q>
<xmx:Zi4VaAPYptHVRcl62H4b4Os_7K2qy_OL3DCwmwKmGgurQtf5r5Pbwg>
<xmx:Zi4VaM08flmRCFC6cAl922EJZx0ji-IpKhEo7Cle1_Dl3goMo8vrtQ>
<xmx:Zy4VaM17zC_B76paKEN-QbPVNt3mkdgdXOVYsMYQLD6wBwZ4fJPg-VCp>
Feedback-ID: i525146e8:Fastmail
Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Fri,
2 May 2025 16:43:18 -0400 (EDT)
Received: by localhost (Postfix, from userid 1000)
id F07CB9FBD9; Fri, 2 May 2025 20:43:15 +0000 (UTC)
Date: Fri, 2 May 2025 20:43:15 +0000
From: Peter Todd <pete@petertodd.org>
To: Anthony Towns <aj@erisian.com.au>
Cc: Greg Maxwell <gmaxwell@gmail.com>,
Bitcoin Development Mailing List <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] Re: Relax OP_RETURN standardness restrictions
Message-ID: <aBUuY1k9oswEAEom@petertodd.org>
References: <rhfyCHr4RfaEalbfGejVdolYCVWIyf84PT2062DQbs5-eU8BPYty5sGyvI3hKeRZQtVC7rn_ugjUWFnWCymz9e9Chbn7FjWJePllFhZRKYk=@protonmail.com>
<9c50244f-0ca0-40a5-8b76-01ba0d67ec1bn@googlegroups.com>
<aBSVn7nJnrheLy5Z@erisian.com.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512;
protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="u64eVnSNGRtP/RS0"
Content-Disposition: inline
In-Reply-To: <aBSVn7nJnrheLy5Z@erisian.com.au>
X-Original-Sender: pete@petertodd.org
X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass
header.i=@messagingengine.com header.s=fm3 header.b="KLEL/1IH";
spf=pass (google.com: domain of pete@petertodd.org designates
202.12.124.153 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=pete@petertodd.org
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com
List-ID: <bitcoindev.googlegroups.com>
X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512
List-Post: <https://groups.google.com/group/bitcoindev/post>, <mailto:bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>
List-Help: <https://groups.google.com/support/>, <mailto:bitcoindev+help@googlegroups.com>
List-Archive: <https://groups.google.com/group/bitcoindev
List-Subscribe: <https://groups.google.com/group/bitcoindev/subscribe>, <mailto:bitcoindev+subscribe@googlegroups.com>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:googlegroups-manage+786775582512+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com>,
<https://groups.google.com/group/bitcoindev/subscribe>
X-Spam-Score: -0.8 (/)
--u64eVnSNGRtP/RS0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Disposition: inline
On Fri, May 02, 2025 at 07:51:27PM +1000, Anthony Towns wrote:
> I think there's perhaps four conclusions you could reasonably draw about
> the policies above, wrt what's been discussed on this topic:
>
> * encouraging data storage people to use commitments (7) didn't really
> work, and given that could be done via documentation or blog posts
At the moment the OpenTimestamps calendars I run are getting about 2.1
timestamp requests per second according to my logs (I keep two weeks
worth). In the past, people who *genuinely* needed mere timestamping
were inefficiently using OP_Return for it. A bit of education - and an
alternative that actually worked - has almost entirely eliminated that
usage and replaced it with something drastically more efficient.
The problem is, only a subset of use-cases can get away with mere
commitments. Citrea itself is an example: they genuinely need
proof-of-publication. A commitment is not enough. No amount of
"education" is going to convince them otherwise.
Keep in mind that Lightning also uses proof-of-publication: if an HTLC
goes on chain, spending it via the pre-image ensures that the pre-image
is published, ensuring the next party in the route also learns the
pre-image. It's a basic building block of lots of consensus algorithms.
--
https://petertodd.org 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/aBUuY1k9oswEAEom%40petertodd.org.
--u64eVnSNGRtP/RS0
Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc"
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----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=Mx9u
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
--u64eVnSNGRtP/RS0--
|
