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Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2025 11:18:18 -0700 (PDT)
From: Antoine Riard <antoine.riard@gmail.com>
To: Bitcoin Development Mailing List <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>
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Subject: [bitcoindev] Re: Make pathological transactions with more than 2500
 legacy signature operations non-standard
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Hi Poinsot,

Thanks for the collection of historical txn hitting the proposed new limit.

The only long-term downside coming immediately out of mind, if the rule=20
becomes consensus
in the future, it's the implicit limitation it would make on the=20
multi-party dimensions
of off-chain constructions. In the past, I made really rough math for=20
1000-sized participants
payments pools, where for the funding_tx, you have the 1000 participants=20
contributing
one input with one sig for each [0].=20

In my understanding the new limit of 2500 signatures operation would make a=
=20
hard-limit
for the number of participants entering in such construction, without other=
=20
tricks that
are consuming more block space. One can note the downside on funding tx of=
=20
high-order
off-chain construction, if a max tx size consensus limit is introduced in=
=20
the future.

Of course, I do not deny the DoS rational of introducing the 2500 sig limit=
=20
and it's
very needed. At the same time, we should be careful of not closing too much=
=20
doors for
future off-chain constructions and long-term tx throughput scalability.

I do believe, it's always technically possible in the future to introduce=
=20
new opcode
or segwit versions scripts (e.g grafroot or entroot-based pool=20
construction), which
wouldn't be subject to the new limit, and as such more scalable. If I'm=20
correct, I
think it's all about how the limit is implemented to parse current scripts=
=20
to be
spent.

But it's hard to say without code available to review and reason. May I=20
kindly note
there is no reference implementation attached in the current BIP54 document=
=20
[1]. Even,
if it's often updated, it's always fruitful to have code under the eyes for=
=20
review.

This might be the kind of concern (very) far down the line...but preserving=
=20
the
evolvability of the consensus rules is a good property to care about, in my=
=20
humble
opinion.

Best,
Riard
OTS hash: a2bb9a1faf79309b039d8ae7e0b951644ca0adb2

[0]=20
https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/CALZpt+E+eKKtOXd-8A6oThw-1i5cJ4h12TuG8tnWs=
wqbfAnRdA@mail.gmail.com/
[1] https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0054.md

Le mercredi 2 juillet 2025 =C3=A0 09:54:33 UTC+1, Antoine Poinsot a =C3=A9c=
rit :

> Hi everyone,
>
> To mitigate high block validation time, BIP54 proposes to make=20
> transactions which require more than
> 2500 legacy signature operations invalid by consensus. The 2500 figure wa=
s=20
> chosen as the tightest
> value that did not make any non-pathological currently standard=20
> transaction invalid.
>
> No transaction in Bitcoin's history would have both hit the BIP54 sigop=
=20
> limit and been standard
> according to today's Bitcoin Core policy[^0]. But what happened in the=20
> past doesn't matter as much
> as the fact that it is possible today to create a pathological standard=
=20
> transaction that is
> BIP54-invalid.
>
> This opens up a major DoS vector against unupgraded miners if BIP54 ever=
=20
> gets activated in these
> conditions. Therefore i propose to make such transactions non-standard an=
d=20
> hold off activation of
> BIP54 until we have good reasons to believe that the vast majority of the=
=20
> hashrate won't create a
> block containing such a transaction.
>
> Doing so gives better guarantees in case BIP54 is ever considered for=20
> activation, and comes at
> virtually no cost since these pathological transactions have never been=
=20
> used and serve no purpose
> beyond increasing the cost of validation. Bitcoin Core PR #32521=20
> implements this change, which i
> hope to get into the upcoming 30.0 release as well as backported to=20
> previous versions.
>
> Best,
> Antoine Poinsot
>
> [^0]: Here the full list of historical transactions that would have hit=
=20
> the BIP54 sigops limit:
> - 659135664894e50040830edb516a76f704fd2be409ecd8d1ea9916c002ab28a2
> - bea1c2b87fee95a203c5b5d9f3e5d0f472385c34cb5af02d0560aab973169683
> - 24b16a13c972522241b65fbb83d09d4bc02ceb33487f41d1f2f620b047307179
> - 53666009e036171b1aee099bc9cd3cb551969a53315410d13ad5390b8b4f3bd0
> - ffc178be118bc2f9eaf016d1c942aec18441a6c5ec17c9d92d1da7962f0479f6
> - 2f1654561297114e434c4aea5ca715e4e3f10be0be8c1c9db2b6f68ea76dae09
> - 62fc8d091a7c597783981f00b889d72d24ad5e3e224dbe1c2a317aabef89217e
> - d939315b180d3d73b5e316eb57a18f8137a3f5943aef21a811660d25f1080a3f
> - 8a6bfaa78828a81147e4848372d491aa4e9048631982a670ad3a61402a4ec327
> - 02cc78789cc070125817189ec378daa750355c8b22bbce982ed96aa549facb1f
> - b97a16ae2e8ae2a804ed7965373b42055f811653f4628e4bef999145d4b593bc
> - c51ffaf08188859669571f897f119b6d39ea48a9334212f554bf4927401b71f3
> - 33ccdda65abdda8025adb03841410dda5fa8948bd38b7fbaf3fed521daf5c4d3
> - bb41a757f405890fb0f5856228e23b715702d714d59bf2b1feb70d8b2b4e3e08
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> - 0683fb9cfcd4a211c14ef7cd2d03739160ff9ba1cb5396be227e475e932a8e9b
> - 2290263dddf8f06f099fcfb130a85f8f00b6cc1e05565a4c028d2187c8592d15
> - d27ca813c97eef5c6e9ed4bd2fe08a7e34aa8ac0c2af353826c73a4e2711a797
> - b28d67131d00bda9dac0da484dd1352c55ec6a869ea04a7e85b71d2ddf2356d9
>

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------=_Part_400143_1394053503.1751566698288
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Hi Poinsot,<br /><br />Thanks for the collection of historical txn hitting =
the proposed new limit.<br /><br />The only long-term downside coming immed=
iately out of mind, if the rule becomes consensus<br />in the future, it's =
the implicit limitation it would make on the multi-party dimensions<br />of=
 off-chain constructions. In the past, I made really rough math for 1000-si=
zed participants<br />payments pools, where for the funding_tx, you have th=
e 1000 participants contributing<br />one input with one sig for each [0]. =
<br /><br />In my understanding the new limit of 2500 signatures operation =
would make a hard-limit<br />for the number of participants entering in suc=
h construction, without other tricks that<br />are consuming more block spa=
ce. One can note the downside on funding tx of high-order<br />off-chain co=
nstruction, if a max tx size consensus limit is introduced in the future.<b=
r /><br />Of course, I do not deny the DoS rational of introducing the 2500=
 sig limit and it's<br />very needed. At the same time, we should be carefu=
l of not closing too much doors for<br />future off-chain constructions and=
 long-term tx throughput scalability.<br /><br />I do believe, it's always =
technically possible in the future to introduce new opcode<br />or segwit v=
ersions scripts (e.g grafroot or entroot-based pool construction), which<br=
 />wouldn't be subject to the new limit, and as such more scalable. If I'm =
correct, I<br />think it's all about how the limit is implemented to parse =
current scripts to be<br />spent.<br /><br />But it's hard to say without c=
ode available to review and reason. May I kindly note<br />there is no refe=
rence implementation attached in the current BIP54 document [1]. Even,<br /=
>if it's often updated, it's always fruitful to have code under the eyes fo=
r review.<br /><br />This might be the kind of concern (very) far down the =
line...but preserving the<br />evolvability of the consensus rules is a goo=
d property to care about, in my humble<br />opinion.<br /><br />Best,<br />=
Riard<br />OTS hash: a2bb9a1faf79309b039d8ae7e0b951644ca0adb2<br /><br />[0=
] https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/CALZpt+E+eKKtOXd-8A6oThw-1i5cJ4h12TuG8tn=
WswqbfAnRdA@mail.gmail.com/<br />[1] https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/m=
aster/bip-0054.md<br /><br /><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"auto" c=
lass=3D"gmail_attr">Le mercredi 2 juillet 2025 =C3=A0 09:54:33 UTC+1, Antoi=
ne Poinsot a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:<br/></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin: 0 0 0 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); pa=
dding-left: 1ex;">Hi everyone,
<br>
<br>To mitigate high block validation time, BIP54 proposes to make transact=
ions which require more than
<br>2500 legacy signature operations invalid by consensus. The 2500 figure =
was chosen as the tightest
<br>value that did not make any non-pathological currently standard transac=
tion invalid.
<br>
<br>No transaction in Bitcoin&#39;s history would have both hit the BIP54 s=
igop limit and been standard
<br>according to today&#39;s Bitcoin Core policy[^0]. But what happened in =
the past doesn&#39;t matter as much
<br>as the fact that it is possible today to create a pathological standard=
 transaction that is
<br>BIP54-invalid.
<br>
<br>This opens up a major DoS vector against unupgraded miners if BIP54 eve=
r gets activated in these
<br>conditions. Therefore i propose to make such transactions non-standard =
and hold off activation of
<br>BIP54 until we have good reasons to believe that the vast majority of t=
he hashrate won&#39;t create a
<br>block containing such a transaction.
<br>
<br>Doing so gives better guarantees in case BIP54 is ever considered for a=
ctivation, and comes at
<br>virtually no cost since these pathological transactions have never been=
 used and serve no purpose
<br>beyond increasing the cost of validation. Bitcoin Core PR #32521 implem=
ents this change, which i
<br>hope to get into the upcoming 30.0 release as well as backported to pre=
vious versions.
<br>
<br>Best,
<br>Antoine Poinsot
<br>
<br>[^0]: Here the full list of historical transactions that would have hit=
 the BIP54 sigops limit:
<br>    - 659135664894e50040830edb516a76f704fd2be409ecd8d1ea9916c002ab28a2
<br>    - bea1c2b87fee95a203c5b5d9f3e5d0f472385c34cb5af02d0560aab973169683
<br>    - 24b16a13c972522241b65fbb83d09d4bc02ceb33487f41d1f2f620b047307179
<br>    - 53666009e036171b1aee099bc9cd3cb551969a53315410d13ad5390b8b4f3bd0
<br>    - ffc178be118bc2f9eaf016d1c942aec18441a6c5ec17c9d92d1da7962f0479f6
<br>    - 2f1654561297114e434c4aea5ca715e4e3f10be0be8c1c9db2b6f68ea76dae09
<br>    - 62fc8d091a7c597783981f00b889d72d24ad5e3e224dbe1c2a317aabef89217e
<br>    - d939315b180d3d73b5e316eb57a18f8137a3f5943aef21a811660d25f1080a3f
<br>    - 8a6bfaa78828a81147e4848372d491aa4e9048631982a670ad3a61402a4ec327
<br>    - 02cc78789cc070125817189ec378daa750355c8b22bbce982ed96aa549facb1f
<br>    - b97a16ae2e8ae2a804ed7965373b42055f811653f4628e4bef999145d4b593bc
<br>    - c51ffaf08188859669571f897f119b6d39ea48a9334212f554bf4927401b71f3
<br>    - 33ccdda65abdda8025adb03841410dda5fa8948bd38b7fbaf3fed521daf5c4d3
<br>    - bb41a757f405890fb0f5856228e23b715702d714d59bf2b1feb70d8b2b4e3e08
<br>    - ba588134ecc93fdbfa06f795c9bf7a05b09ca9ca9095659e401325d501a90363
<br>    - ba6c6d2389f765f7873f5a9a7c11bf806afd784d15b0b8dff011fe95d1d5e841
<br>    - dd49dc50b54b4bc1232e4b68cfdd3d349e49d3d7fe817d1041fff6dd583a6eaf
<br>    - 3d724f03e8bcc9e2e3ea79ebe4c6cffca86d85e510742cd6d3ac29d420787a34
<br>    - 8bcf8e8d8265922956bda9b651d2a0e993072c9dca306f3a132dcdb95c7cee6e
<br>    - ba31c8833b7417fec9a84536f32fcb52d432acb66d99b9be6f3899686a269b2b
<br>    - 9cc0a350d50fa252264636e62d586c7121d0a5656bc7e6b27354325684bec007
<br>    - dd5e32971010ef0c9f4cda8977830d727a6828165c69005a3fab67415c755b7d
<br>    - 66be4e766df2c23e08f4cf8c3e6cfa202b20967616ace38e1cbc1f20ee78db2e
<br>    - e229a83deafec5f49e4990dba914fd815d05809f5eefbd979d55fb64f93827a3
<br>    - 901e3695838925dd020a085e8f078c393e64179dcf0a43134a1547d21acab49a
<br>    - 49ab4d05adbc3294fbbd63d3b876fb97a87a3f5090aa6b1d87f31ab1c4564235
<br>    - c4f4357657ba403455167b2897acfcb922c2a0973c34e58733ca352394e6c629
<br>    - 6c3ee29a9b584fbeae60169f0abce573a7b768bf21398d4dfad9011aa7132530
<br>    - 5dc2bdc5ce29c52840f10203fd93ffed82da4cf49eddf93437dd1329baa9ade5
<br>    - f40fd92f5e8cecf956caec4b6abe0b88decafde0ae71d16a72c41cb1a3da0d60
<br>    - 92b68e4a19ef47c0dd022727a9c4b8ceb9466ce752ad8995ffbc5948bdfabf57
<br>    - 1b604a075075197c82d33555ea48ae27e3d2724bc4c3f31650eff79692971fb7
<br>    - 5d8875ed1707cfee2221741b3144e575aec4e0d6412eeffe1e0fa07335f61311
<br>    - 14dd70e399f1d88efdb1c1ed799da731e3250d318bfdadc18073092aa7fd02c2
<br>    - bb75a8d10cfbe88bb6aba7b28be497ea83f41767f4ee26217e311c615ea0132f
<br>    - a684223716324923178a55737db81383c28f055b844d8196c988c70ee7075a9a
<br>    - fa9120afe1bb09b7154ba82a022cbdcc29fc5be2699b346ebb7ffdc46807b2f7
<br>    - 5e640a7861695fa660343abde52cfe10b5a97dd8fc6ad3c5e4b2b4bb1c8c3dd9
<br>    - 7e7e69b4de5ef05750d27a863bdcb2d9dbc4a732c2a719f435ae5a9a4690b30f
<br>    - d85ce71f583095a76fb17b5bb2a1cbf369e2a2867ca38103aa310cbb2aaf2921
<br>    - 905df97982a2904d6d1b3dfc272435a24d705f4c7e1fc4052798b9904ad5e597
<br>    - 5b0a05f12f33d2dc1507e5c18ceea6bb368afc51f00890965efcc3cb4025997d
<br>    - cb550c9a1c63498f7ecb7bafc6f915318f16bb54069ff6257b4e069b97b367c8
<br>    - 66b614e736c884c1a064f7b0d6a9b0abd97e7bb73ac7e4b1b92b493d558a0711
<br>    - 9fdbcf0ef9d8d00f66e47917f67cc5d78aec1ac786e2abb8d2facb4e4790aad6
<br>    - 9c667c64fcbb484b44dcce638f69130bbf1a4dd0fbb4423f58ceff92af4219ec
<br>    - 2e7c454cfc348aa220f53b5ba21a55efa3d36353265f085e34053c4efa575fda
<br>    - 484c8f9d1adf16a576bce52721a5e4edd5239df346d94fd730f6d7b681ab3652
<br>    - e3d3d1ecec5d6b57792c793c413fc9b19189f5b932db8887d46f06abc101d24e
<br>    - b23c99c30339cb93eb04790bc5213f7732365488fe2549802bb472084b6ec508
<br>    - 92f217ec13ab309240adc0798804b3418666344a5cbfff73fb7be8192dad5261
<br>    - 22e861ee83c3d23a4823a3786460119425d8183783068f7ec519646592fac8c2
<br>    - fa5a58f787f569f5b8fab9dadb2447161fac45b36fb6c2c0f548ed0209b60663
<br>    - 767885bc144bdc0414217547f0169352a065083750371cabe5acbd0e0dd60436
<br>    - 461308024d89ea4231911df4ef24e65e60af2a9204c8282a6b67f4214c1714e7
<br>    - 9db4e0838c55ef20c5eff271fc3bf09a404fff68f9cdad7df8eae732500b983d
<br>    - 6e278c0ca05bf8e0317f991dae8a9efa141b5a310a4c18838b4e082e356ef649
<br>    - 9c972a02db30f9ee91cc02b30733d70d4e2d759b5d3c73b240e5026a8a2640c4
<br>    - d38417fcc27d3422fe05f76f6e658202d7fa394d0c9f5b419fef97610c3c49f1
<br>    - e32477636e47e1da5fb49090a3a87a3b8ff637d069a70cd5b41595da225e65b4
<br>    - a7e0a86944e9750a3fe372dd318da7b81c4f4c4ab228741ba0cf7fb6d56d6640
<br>    - f62f2c6a16b5da61eaae36d30d43bb8dd8932cd89b40d83623fa185b671c67f9
<br>    - 856a2117b6d81acbe6add60a114307d9572dff027079151d50ee77a7b0c70404
<br>    - 763e13f873afa5f24cd33fc570a178c65e0a79c05c88c147335834fc9e8f837b
<br>    - c3f2c2df5388b79949c01d66e83d8bc3b9ccd4f85dbd91465a16fb8e21bf8e1b
<br>    - e245f6c3c6b02dc81ea1b6694735565cc535f603708783be027d0e6a94ac3bd5
<br>    - 02313ac62ca8f03930cdc5d2e437fabc05aea60a31ace18a39678c90b45d32bd
<br>    - 01d23d32bccc04b8ca5a934be16da08ae6a760ccaad2f62dc2f337eee7643517
<br>    - d985c42bcd704aac88b9152aede1cca9bbb6baee55c8577f84c42d600cfec8e4
<br>    - 6bb39576292c69016d0e0c1fe7871640aab12dd95874d67c46cf3424822f8dfd
<br>    - 79e30d460594694231f163dd79a69808904819e2f39bf3e31b7ddc4baa030a04
<br>    - 26ed04bd772c7d3d621329bda8eefec9f81108d46ef0bd3b690000465f5254b3
<br>    - bf40393fedc45a1b347957124ef9bb8ae6a44feecee10ef2cc78064fabf8125f
<br>    - 446c0a1d563c93285e93f085192340a82c9aef7a543d41a86b65e215794845ef
<br>    - 1cf52f9ef89fa43bb4f042cbd4f80e9f090061e466cbe14c6b7ba525df0e572e
<br>    - 54bf51be42ff45cdf8217b07bb233466e18d23fd66483b12449cd9b99c3a0545
<br>    - b5ca68205e6d55e87bd6163b28467da737227c6cbcc91cb9f6dc7b400163a12b
<br>    - 9f8cc4496cff3216608c2f2177ab360bd2d4f58cae6490d5bc23312cf30e72e0
<br>    - 4eba5deb2bbf3abf067f524484763287911e8d68fb54fa09e1287cf6cd6d1276
<br>    - e3de81a5817a3c825cf44fbf8185e15d446393615568966a6e3fc22cba609c7d
<br>    - 1e700d8ce85b17d713cad1a8cae932d26740e7c8ab09d2201ddfe9d1acb4706c
<br>    - b8ba939da1babf863746175b59cbfb3b967354f04db41bd13cb11da58e43d2a8
<br>    - 22df2138a28c9d339813854a38181ffc5ac6f37d171d5b5bd6b0b79bf8d3c641
<br>    - 1d93bfe18bc05b13169837b6bc868a92da3c87938531d6f3b58eee4b8822ecbf
<br>    - e0c5e2dc3a39e733cf1bdb1a55bbcb3c2469f283becf2f99a0de771ec48f6278
<br>    - c1e00054cc3fef88c2fdec2967e96fdb4c645bcf3f08b0580b51e47ecbfab71a
<br>    - 9a567fde7c65bf85bbc2b109277933431ebc8a35de321a4b6436601d68aa4521
<br>    - 6a9263e48a076bfc37deb93d01bf354305f4ac929be6b0ca05c078381a562c0c
<br>    - 0683fb9cfcd4a211c14ef7cd2d03739160ff9ba1cb5396be227e475e932a8e9b
<br>    - 2290263dddf8f06f099fcfb130a85f8f00b6cc1e05565a4c028d2187c8592d15
<br>    - d27ca813c97eef5c6e9ed4bd2fe08a7e34aa8ac0c2af353826c73a4e2711a797
<br>    - b28d67131d00bda9dac0da484dd1352c55ec6a869ea04a7e85b71d2ddf2356d9
<br></blockquote></div>

<p></p>

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