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From: Saint Wenhao <saintwenhao@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 6 May 2025 13:48:37 +0200
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Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] Re: Unbreaking testnet4
To: Greg Maxwell <gmaxwell@gmail.com>
Cc: Bitcoin Development Mailing List <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>
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> Some believed that resetting alone would discourage the conduct,

I wonder, why many people keep saying "reset", when in practice, the old
network is just "abandoned", and nothing is really "resetted". We would
have a true reset, if a new testnet would lead to the full chain
reorganization of the old chain. And this thing never happened, all
previous testnets were just abandoned, as they were, and there were just
not enough people, willing to keep old networks alive.

> Hard fork in an ultramassive premine

Well, if testnet4 will be "fixed" by doing a hard-fork on top of existing
chain, then it would be equivalent to releasing testnet5 with "premine" of
all testnet4 blocks.

> so maybe an additional 21 million testnet btc?

Using doublings, instead of halvings, is future-proof. Because then, if
someone will continue using such test network forever, then later, it would
release 21 million coins per block (which would be roughly equivalent to
having a superchain, where you can peg one altcoin per 10 minutes).

> if someone starts trading tnbct for money, whomever has the premine
wallet should feel feel to sell into it what they can

In practice, trading will start, when the first version of the official
wallet will be released. It was the case in testnet4: when it was possible
to mine new coins, only when you created your own binary from the source
code, then there were only devs, and some skilled users. However, when it
was officially supported in a new Core version, then it was quickly listed
on centralized exchanges, and a lot of people dumped all of their test
coins, and walked away with real BTCs.

> the custodian of the premine will use it for the betterment of Bitcoin
development,  but if it's found that they're not-- solution is just another
reset

Which means, that Bitcoin developers will turn into altcoin developers,
where they will release new altcoins called "testnets", only to dump all of
them, and get BTCs out of it.

wt., 6 maj 2025 o 01:40 Greg Maxwell <gmaxwell@gmail.com> napisa=C5=82(a):

> On Tuesday, March 18, 2025 at 9:24:49=E2=80=AFPM UTC Antoine Poinsot wrot=
e:
>
> Hi,
> Testnet4 was rolled out a year ago to address the shortcomings of
> testnet3. One of those shortcomings was the difficulty reset creating
> havoc. [0] In spite of this a similar rule was adopted for testnet4. [1] =
As
> a result, testnet4 is similarly creating havoc. [2]
> The goal of testnet is to mimic the Bitcoin mainnet. This is why it is
> useful to have in addition to a more control testing environment such as
> Signet.
> The given rationale for a difficulty reset was to let developers
> occasionally mine blocks on their laptop. But you cannot have your cake a=
nd
> eat it too: either the network is permissionless (PoW) or you assign
> identities and privileges to some (Signet). By trying to do both at the
> same time testnet4 created a loophole for abuse. As a result it failed on
> both count: it neither mimics mainnet nor allows developers to mine activ=
e
> blocks on their laptop.
> I propose to fix this by removing the difficulty reset rule from testnet4
> through a flag day hard fork on 2026-01-01. I picked a date well in the
> future to minimize disruption. This leaves enough time for a patch to be
> reviewed, merged, included in the next major Bitcoin Core release,
> backported to previous releases and adopted by the infrastructure running
> on testnet4. That should be enough for a test network.
>
>
> Part of the root cause is violations of the gentleman's agreement to not
> trade testnet coins for money, this results in predictable chaos with
> people sniping the low difficulty blocks. Some believed that resetting
> alone would discourage the conduct, but even if it had (it hadn't people
> are selling them now) it was still likely that people would hoard up coin=
s
> just in case they became tradable in the future.
>
> There is a simple fix for this which doesn't result in an operating
> difference from Bitcoin, just an economic one.   Hard fork in an
> ultramassive premine, as large as possible but what stays with existing
> value overflow logic. (so maybe an additional 21 million testnet btc?).
>
> This also resolves the 'actual developers can't get coins problem' and if
> someone starts trading tnbct for money, whomever has the premine wallet
> should feel feel to sell into it what they can.  Once they run out of coi=
ns
> it'll be time for another testnet reset.
>
> It may just not be possible to prevent degens from trading tn coins for
> money, -- I mean consider the altcoins that some people spend money on :)=
,
> there is basically no low bar on how crappy you can make a cryptocurrency
> where some scammer won't try to sell it to some fool.  But what can't be
> prevented can at least be turned into a benefit.
>
> Compared to things like just rigging the subsidy to continue forever--
> that's a bigger consensus change compared to bitcoin, and I think it
> doesn't have the right incentive surface... some of the most popular
> altcoins have endless inflation and people still use them.  Instead you
> want the failure mode to be "if you do trade this for money, most of the
> profits end up going to support a developer or development, rather than
> whatever jerk decided to trick people into paying for it". :)
>
> Feel free to suggest yourself as the custodian of the premine.  Or it
> could be some anonymous party if there is a concern that they'll be
> pestered for handouts.  There should be a general expectation that the
> custodian of the premine will use it for the betterment of Bitcoin
> development,  but if it's found that they're not-- solution is just anoth=
er
> reset. :)
>
>
>
> --
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>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">&gt; Some believed that resetting alone would discourage t=
he conduct,<br><br>I wonder, why many people keep saying &quot;reset&quot;,=
 when in practice, the old network is just &quot;abandoned&quot;, and nothi=
ng is really &quot;resetted&quot;. We would have a true reset, if a new tes=
tnet would lead to the full chain reorganization of the old chain. And this=
 thing never happened, all previous testnets were just abandoned, as they w=
ere, and there were just not enough people, willing to keep old networks al=
ive.<br><br>&gt; Hard fork in an ultramassive premine<br><br>Well, if testn=
et4 will be &quot;fixed&quot; by doing a hard-fork on top of existing chain=
, then it would be equivalent to releasing testnet5 with &quot;premine&quot=
; of all testnet4 blocks.<br><br>&gt; so maybe an additional 21 million tes=
tnet btc?<br><br>Using doublings, instead of halvings, is future-proof. Bec=
ause then, if someone will continue using such test network forever, then l=
ater, it would release 21 million coins per block (which would be roughly e=
quivalent to having a superchain, where you can peg one altcoin per 10 minu=
tes).<br><br>&gt; if someone starts trading tnbct for money, whomever has t=
he premine wallet should feel feel to sell into it what they can<br><br>In =
practice, trading will start, when the first version of the official wallet=
 will be released. It was the case in testnet4: when it was possible to min=
e new coins, only when you created your own binary from the source code, th=
en there were only devs, and some skilled users. However, when it was offic=
ially supported in a new Core version, then it was quickly listed on centra=
lized exchanges, and a lot of people dumped all of their test coins, and wa=
lked away with real BTCs.<br><br>&gt; the custodian of the premine will use=
 it for the betterment of Bitcoin development, =C2=A0but if it&#39;s found =
that they&#39;re not-- solution is just another reset<br><br>Which means, t=
hat Bitcoin developers will turn into altcoin developers, where they will r=
elease new altcoins called &quot;testnets&quot;, only to dump all of them, =
and get BTCs out of it.</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote gmail_quote_cont=
ainer"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">wt., 6 maj 2025 o 01:40=C2=A0G=
reg Maxwell &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gmaxwell@gmail.com">gmaxwell@gmail.com</a=
>&gt; napisa=C5=82(a):<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"=
margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-lef=
t:1ex"><div><div dir=3D"auto">On Tuesday, March 18, 2025 at 9:24:49=E2=80=
=AFPM UTC Antoine Poinsot wrote:<br></div><blockquote style=3D"margin:0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div =
style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px"><div style=3D"font-fa=
mily:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px"><div>Hi,<br>Testnet4
 was  rolled out a year ago to address the shortcomings of testnet3. One
 of those shortcomings was the difficulty reset creating havoc. [0] In=20
spite of this a similar rule was adopted for testnet4. [1] As a result,=20
testnet4 is similarly creating havoc. [2]<br>The goal of testnet is=20
to mimic the Bitcoin mainnet. This is why it is useful to have in=20
addition to a more control testing environment such as Signet.<br>The
 given rationale for a difficulty reset was to let developers=20
occasionally mine blocks on their laptop. But you cannot have your cake=20
and eat it too: either the network is permissionless (PoW) or you assign
 identities and privileges to some (Signet). By trying to do both at the
 same time testnet4 created a loophole for abuse. As a result it failed=20
on both count: it neither mimics mainnet nor allows developers to mine=20
active blocks on their laptop.<br>I propose to fix this by removing=20
the difficulty reset rule from testnet4 through a flag day hard fork on=20
2026-01-01. I picked a date well in the future to minimize disruption.=20
This leaves enough time for a patch to be reviewed, merged, included in=20
the next major Bitcoin Core release, backported to previous releases and
 adopted by the infrastructure running on testnet4. That should be=20
enough for a test network.<br></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div=
><div>Part of the root cause is violations of the gentleman&#39;s agreement=
 to not trade testnet coins for money, this results in predictable chaos wi=
th people sniping the low difficulty blocks. Some believed that resetting a=
lone would discourage the conduct, but even if it had (it hadn&#39;t people=
 are selling them now) it was still likely that people would hoard up coins=
 just in case they became tradable in the future.</div><div><br></div><div>=
There is a simple fix for this which doesn&#39;t result in an operating dif=
ference from Bitcoin, just an economic one.=C2=A0=C2=A0 Hard fork in an ult=
ramassive premine, as large as possible but what stays with existing value =
overflow logic. (so maybe an additional 21 million testnet btc?).</div><div=
><br></div><div>This also resolves the &#39;actual developers can&#39;t get=
 coins problem&#39; and if someone starts trading tnbct for money, whomever=
 has the premine wallet should feel feel to sell into it what they can.=C2=
=A0 Once they run out of coins it&#39;ll be time for another testnet reset.=
</div><div><br></div><div>It may just not be possible to prevent degens fro=
m trading tn coins for money, -- I mean consider the altcoins that some peo=
ple spend money on :),=C2=A0 there is basically no low bar on how crappy yo=
u can make a cryptocurrency where some scammer won&#39;t try to sell it to =
some fool.=C2=A0 But what can&#39;t be prevented can at least be turned int=
o a benefit.</div><div><br></div><div>Compared to things like just rigging =
the subsidy to continue forever-- that&#39;s a bigger consensus change comp=
ared to bitcoin, and I think it doesn&#39;t have the right incentive surfac=
e... some of the most popular altcoins have endless inflation and people st=
ill use them.=C2=A0 Instead you want the failure mode to be &quot;if you do=
 trade this for money, most of the profits end up going to support a develo=
per or development, rather than whatever jerk decided to trick people into =
paying for it&quot;. :)</div><div><br></div><div>Feel free to suggest yours=
elf as the custodian of the premine.=C2=A0 Or it could be some anonymous pa=
rty if there is a concern that they&#39;ll be pestered for handouts.=C2=A0 =
There should be a general expectation that the custodian of the premine wil=
l use it for the betterment of Bitcoin development,=C2=A0 but if it&#39;s f=
ound that they&#39;re not-- solution is just another reset. :)</div><div><b=
r></div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div>

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