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From: George Burke <gb@geoburke.com>
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2024 19:03:30 -0700
Message-ID: <CAHYx7BtwRyYSL9Hdv=5nbdzBBb3fZmW_VYSWSZZneUUsVyBEkQ@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] HODL Tax Proposal
To: Jimmy Song <jaejoon@gmail.com>
Cc: Bitcoin Development Mailing List <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>, 
	=?UTF-8?Q?Jos=C3=A9_Edil_Guimar=C3=A3es_de_Medeiros?= <jose.edil@gmail.com>, 
	Keagan McClelland <keagan.mcclelland@gmail.com>, Richard Greaser <thebitcoinbugle@gmail.com>
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Jimmy, he might be trolling but he replied privately to me with a very
thoughtful (though disagreeable) rebuttal. Hard to consider this satirical.


Sent from Mobile
--=20
George Burke
CMO, FounderPool.co
Cofounder, PortalDeFi.com
Silicon Valley Bitcoin, Organizer

San Francisco, CA | San Juan, PR





On Thu, Aug 1, 2024 at 6:57=E2=80=AFPM Jimmy Song <jaejoon@gmail.com> wrote=
:

> For those that haven't figured this out yet, the name on the original
> proposal (Dick Greaser) is the editor or the Bitcoin Bugle, a satirical
> "news" site. He's trolling the list.
>
> On Thu, Aug 1, 2024, 8:57=E2=80=AFPM Keagan McClelland <
> keagan.mcclelland@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hypothetically miners could attempt to adopt a mining/relay policy
>> wherein they consider the age of the utxo being spent and factor that in=
to
>> the feerate they consider when accepting the transaction into their bloc=
k
>> template. However this would be an opt-in mechanism and miners can choos=
e
>> to not take this into consideration when making the choice to mine the
>> transaction or not. If enough hashpower adopted this policy, you could e=
nd
>> up with a de-facto demurrage tax. This also means that you can do this
>> without a consensus fork if there was appetite for it.
>>
>> However, I suspect there will be extreme resistance to this proposal and
>> it is unlikely that miners would intentionally leave otherwise-good fees=
 on
>> the table simply because they want to play prisoners dilemma games where
>> they lose fees to the competition.
>>
>> Keags
>>
>> On Thu, Aug 1, 2024 at 5:18=E2=80=AFPM Jos=C3=A9 Edil Guimar=C3=A3es de =
Medeiros <
>> jose.edil@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Not sure if I should consider this a joke after the president of bitcoi=
n
>>> thing, but I just got curious about a basic technical detail and wanted=
 to
>>> stress the concept.
>>>
>>> Since the value "tokens" in Bitcoin are the utxos, outputs from
>>> transactions that have not been spent in another transaction, and since=
 the
>>> sole purpose of the utxos are to atomically serve as input to a subsequ=
ent
>>> transaction, how do you proposed to "tax" them?
>>>
>>> I mean, let's say someone sent me 1 BTC to address X by building a
>>> simple p2pkh transaction with the address I provided. To move that 1 BT=
C
>>> mean to authorize it as an input to a new transaction. In principle, th=
at
>>> can only be done by me producing a valid signature using a private key.
>>>
>>> Let's say I'm one of those infamous holders. How do you propose the tax
>>> to be implemented?
>>>
>>> All the best.
>>> --
>>> E...
>>>
>>> On 1 Aug 2024, at 18:13, Richard Greaser <thebitcoinbugle@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> =EF=BB=BFHi everyone,
>>>
>>> It has become apparent to me that there is an issue where users of the
>>> network holding their coins, are not adding value to the network.
>>>
>>> As miners continue to get squeezed post halving, they would benefit
>>> tremendously from fees being taken from individuals refusing to move th=
eir
>>> coins, providing increased security to the network.
>>>
>>> I have written out a proposal more in depth and is attached below.
>>>
>>> --
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>> Groups "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
>>> an email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>>> To view this discussion on the web visit
>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/6512db18-bd15-462e-92fd-75=
49b5e885e7n%40googlegroups.com
>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/6512db18-bd15-462e-92fd-7=
549b5e885e7n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=3Demail&utm_source=3Dfooter>
>>> .
>>> <hodltax.md>
>>>
>>> --
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>> Groups "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
>>> an email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>>> To view this discussion on the web visit
>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/C7829BDC-1273-49C9-BE03-F0=
0823A94C3D%40gmail.com
>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/C7829BDC-1273-49C9-BE03-F=
00823A94C3D%40gmail.com?utm_medium=3Demail&utm_source=3Dfooter>
>>> .
>>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group=
s
>> "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group.
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n
>> email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
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>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/CALeFGL2ngsRd3N%2B8L7u9ZLNQ=
B084xqcMZ04Dp3J53CEBHBxQcg%40mail.gmail.com
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QB084xqcMZ04Dp3J53CEBHBxQcg%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=3Demail&utm_source=
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>> .
>>
> --
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> email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
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pFDbtSmfrppyd5gMqG9fK_QTu6rw%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=3Demail&utm_source=
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> .
>

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<div dir=3D"auto">Jimmy, he might be trolling but he replied privately to m=
e with a very thoughtful (though disagreeable) rebuttal. Hard to consider t=
his satirical.=C2=A0<br clear=3D"all"><br clear=3D"all"><div><div dir=3D"lt=
r" class=3D"gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"><br>Sent fr=
om Mobile <br>-- <br>George Burke <br>CMO,=C2=A0FounderPool.co <br>Cofounde=
r, PortalDeFi.com <br>Silicon Valley Bitcoin, Organizer=C2=A0<br><br>San Fr=
ancisco, CA  |  San Juan, PR<br><br>=C2=A0<br><br></div></div></div><div><b=
r></div><div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail=
_attr">On Thu, Aug 1, 2024 at 6:57=E2=80=AFPM Jimmy Song &lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:jaejoon@gmail.com">jaejoon@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquot=
e class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc sol=
id;padding-left:1ex"><p dir=3D"ltr">For those that haven&#39;t figured this=
 out yet, the name on the original proposal (Dick Greaser) is the editor or=
 the Bitcoin Bugle, a satirical &quot;news&quot; site. He&#39;s trolling th=
e list.</p>
<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu=
, Aug 1, 2024, 8:57=E2=80=AFPM Keagan McClelland &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:keag=
an.mcclelland@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">keagan.mcclelland@gmail.com</a>&=
gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0=
 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hypothe=
tically miners could attempt to adopt a mining/relay policy wherein they co=
nsider the age of the utxo being spent and factor that into the feerate the=
y consider when accepting the transaction into their block template. Howeve=
r this would be an opt-in mechanism and miners can choose to not take this =
into consideration when making the choice to mine the transaction or not. I=
f enough hashpower adopted this policy, you could end up with a de-facto de=
murrage tax. This also means that you can do this without a consensus fork =
if there was appetite for it.<div><br></div><div>However, I suspect there w=
ill be extreme resistance to this proposal and it is unlikely that miners w=
ould intentionally leave otherwise-good fees on the table simply because th=
ey want to play prisoners dilemma games where they lose fees to the competi=
tion.</div><div><br></div><div>Keags</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu, Aug 1, 2024 at 5:18=E2=80=
=AFPM Jos=C3=A9 Edil Guimar=C3=A3es de Medeiros &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jose.=
edil@gmail.com" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">jose.edil@gmail.com</a=
>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px=
 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><di=
v dir=3D"auto">Not sure if I should consider this a joke after the presiden=
t of bitcoin thing, but I just got curious about a basic technical detail a=
nd wanted to stress the concept.=C2=A0<div><br></div><div>Since the value &=
quot;tokens&quot; in Bitcoin are the utxos, outputs from transactions that =
have not been spent in another transaction, and since the sole purpose of t=
he utxos are to atomically serve as input to a subsequent transaction, how =
do you proposed to &quot;tax&quot; them?</div><div><br></div><div>I mean, l=
et&#39;s say someone sent me 1 BTC to address X by building a simple p2pkh =
transaction with the address I provided. To move that 1 BTC mean to authori=
ze it as an input to a new transaction. In principle, that can only be done=
 by me producing a valid signature using a private key.</div><div><br></div=
><div>Let&#39;s say I&#39;m one of those infamous holders. How do you propo=
se the tax to be implemented?</div><div><br></div><div>All the best.=C2=A0<=
br id=3D"m_-6290482292473718015m_7527663708373658711m_-8171199284076287391l=
ineBreakAtBeginningOfSignature"><div dir=3D"ltr">--<div>E...</div></div><di=
v dir=3D"ltr"><br><blockquote type=3D"cite">On 1 Aug 2024, at 18:13, Richar=
d Greaser &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:thebitcoinbugle@gmail.com" rel=3D"noreferre=
r" target=3D"_blank">thebitcoinbugle@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></bloc=
kquote></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr">=EF=BB=BFHi everyon=
e,=C2=A0<div><br></div><div>It has become apparent to me that there is an i=
ssue where users of the network holding their coins, are not adding value t=
o the network. <br><br></div><div>As miners continue to get squeezed post h=
alving, they would benefit tremendously from fees being taken from individu=
als refusing to move their coins, providing increased security to the netwo=
rk.=C2=A0<br><br>I have written out a proposal more in depth and is attache=
d below.=C2=A0</div>

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