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From: Jameson Lopp <jameson.lopp@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2025 16:05:57 -0400
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Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] CTV + CSFS: a letter
To: Sjors Provoost <sjors@sprovoost.nl>
Cc: Antoine Poinsot <darosior@protonmail.com>, Matt Corallo <lf-lists@mattcorallo.com>, 
	Andrew Poelstra <apoelstra@wpsoftware.net>, 
	Bitcoin Development Mailing List <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>
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On Sat, Jun 14, 2025 at 11:58=E2=80=AFAM Sjors Provoost <sjors@sprovoost.nl=
> wrote:

> Hi Jameson,
>
> CTV does enable vaults, but the user has to (carefully) move coins into
> the vault themselves. Because CTV commits to the amount, among other
> things, you can't simply publish a vault address and receive arbitrary
> amounts there. They'd be stuck, committing to an impossible to satisfy CT=
V
> hash.
>

Understood. OP_CCV enables more flexible / user friendly vaults. Sounds
good to me!

I'll just reiterate my previous point that custody software services would
rather have a "good" tool in the hand than a better solution waiting on the
distant horizon.


> There's also the question of what, if anything, the user needs to backup
> after each deposit [0]. It's probably just the deposit transaction id,
> which is arguably something that can be recovered with some (?) work.
>
> OP_CCV enables a more flexible design where the user can receive arbitrar=
y
> amounts directly into their vault address, and with nothing to backup aft=
er
> initial setup (seeds + descriptor-like-thing).
>
> Here's a demo functional test for an OP_CCV vault (without CTV):
> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/32080
>
> The problem with both demos is that they use boutique software. There's
> not yet a potentially interoperable standard to describe these things.
>
> Hopefully some simple vault schemes can be shoehorned into the existing
> output descriptor paradigm [1], because inventing a whole new way of maki=
ng
> vault-aware wallets interoperable would take many years.
>
> To illustrate such schemes, I'd love to see a working demo using just a
> (patched) Bitcoin Core wallet. Though perhaps a library like BDK[2] is an
> easier platform for such ideation.
>
> - Sjors
>
> [0] https://github.com/jamesob/simple-ctv-vault/issues/9
> [1] https://delvingbitcoin.org/t/ctv-vault-output-descriptor/1766/8
> [2] https://github.com/bitcoindevkit
>
> > Op 13 jun 2025, om 17:41 heeft Jameson Lopp <jameson.lopp@gmail.com>
> het volgende geschreven:
> >
> [...]
> >
> > I'm not sure how to parse Antoine's claim that CTV+CSFS doesn't enable
> vaults given that there has already been a CTV vault client proof of
> concept for 3 years: https://github.com/jamesob/simple-ctv-vault
> >
> > On Fri, Jun 13, 2025 at 9:07=E2=80=AFAM Antoine Poinsot <darosior@proto=
nmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
> [...]
>
> > That said, consensus-enforced vaults require a mechanism to forward any
> amount received on a script A to a pre-committed script B. CTV+CSFS does
> not enable this, and a primitive that actually does (like CCV) is more
> controversial because of its potency.
>
> [...]
>
> > I also appreciate that CTV is nice to have for CCV vaults, but a
> potential future use case that is not enabled by one proposal cannot be
> used to motivate said proposal.
> >
>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote g=
mail_quote_container"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sat, Jun 14,=
 2025 at 11:58=E2=80=AFAM Sjors Provoost &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sjors@sprovo=
ost.nl">sjors@sprovoost.nl</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gma=
il_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,2=
04,204);padding-left:1ex">Hi Jameson,<br>
<br>
CTV does enable vaults, but the user has to (carefully) move coins into the=
 vault themselves. Because CTV commits to the amount, among other things, y=
ou can&#39;t simply publish a vault address and receive arbitrary amounts t=
here. They&#39;d be stuck, committing to an impossible to satisfy CTV hash.=
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Understood. OP_CCV enables more flexib=
le / user friendly vaults. Sounds good to me!</div><div><br></div><div>I&#3=
9;ll just reiterate my previous point that=C2=A0custody software services w=
ould rather have a &quot;good&quot; tool in the hand than a better solution=
 waiting on the distant horizon.</div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"g=
mail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204=
,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
There&#39;s also the question of what, if anything, the user needs to backu=
p after each deposit [0]. It&#39;s probably just the deposit transaction id=
, which is arguably something that can be recovered with some (?) work.<br>
<br>
OP_CCV enables a more flexible design where the user can receive arbitrary =
amounts directly into their vault address, and with nothing to backup after=
 initial setup (seeds + descriptor-like-thing).<br>
<br>
Here&#39;s a demo functional test for an OP_CCV vault (without CTV): <a hre=
f=3D"https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/32080" rel=3D"noreferrer" targ=
et=3D"_blank">https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/32080</a><br>
<br>
The problem with both demos is that they use boutique software. There&#39;s=
 not yet a potentially interoperable standard to describe these things.<br>
<br>
Hopefully some simple vault schemes can be shoehorned into the existing out=
put descriptor paradigm [1], because inventing a whole new way of making va=
ult-aware wallets interoperable would take many years.<br>
<br>
To illustrate such schemes, I&#39;d love to see a working demo using just a=
 (patched) Bitcoin Core wallet. Though perhaps a library like BDK[2] is an =
easier platform for such ideation.=C2=A0 <br>
<br>
- Sjors<br>
<br>
[0] <a href=3D"https://github.com/jamesob/simple-ctv-vault/issues/9" rel=3D=
"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://github.com/jamesob/simple-ctv-vault/=
issues/9</a><br>
[1] <a href=3D"https://delvingbitcoin.org/t/ctv-vault-output-descriptor/176=
6/8" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://delvingbitcoin.org/t/ctv-=
vault-output-descriptor/1766/8</a><br>
[2] <a href=3D"https://github.com/bitcoindevkit" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=
=3D"_blank">https://github.com/bitcoindevkit</a><br>
<br>
&gt; Op 13 jun 2025, om 17:41 heeft Jameson Lopp &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jame=
son.lopp@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">jameson.lopp@gmail.com</a>&gt; het vo=
lgende geschreven:<br>
&gt; <br>
[...]<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; I&#39;m not sure how to parse Antoine&#39;s claim that CTV+CSFS doesn&=
#39;t enable vaults given that there has already been a CTV vault client pr=
oof of concept for 3 years: <a href=3D"https://github.com/jamesob/simple-ct=
v-vault" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://github.com/jamesob/si=
mple-ctv-vault</a><br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; On Fri, Jun 13, 2025 at 9:07=E2=80=AFAM Antoine Poinsot &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:darosior@protonmail.com" target=3D"_blank">darosior@protonmail.com<=
/a>&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
<br>
[...]<br>
<br>
&gt; That said, consensus-enforced vaults require a mechanism to forward an=
y amount received on a script A to a pre-committed script B. CTV+CSFS does =
not enable this, and a primitive that actually does (like CCV) is more cont=
roversial because of its potency.<br>
<br>
[...]<br>
<br>
&gt; I also appreciate that CTV is nice to have for CCV vaults, but a poten=
tial future use case that is not enabled by one proposal cannot be used to =
motivate said proposal.<br>
&gt; <br>
<br>
</blockquote></div></div>

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