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From: Greg Sanders <gsanders87@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2022 07:15:25 -0400
Message-ID: <CAB3F3DtJ0mGBfaRodBW17BOwGVfG3bO9zNjb1XqPCbs4Zq4D0w@mail.gmail.com>
To: Nadav Ivgi <nadav@shesek.info>, 
 Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
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Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] ANYPREVOUT in place of CTV
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The proposed use case for the ANYSCRIPT part of APOAS explicitly doesn't
commit to amount, so I'd also assume it not be re-added or at least be able
to be opened out.

On Sat, Apr 30, 2022, 4:47 AM Nadav Ivgi via bitcoin-dev <
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:

> Hi darosior,
>
> It's interesting to note that APOAS|SINGLE (with the ANYONECANPAY
> behaviour and without covering the spent input index) has some interesting
> uses for cases where the covenant only needs to restrict a single output
> (so useful for e.g. vaults or spacechains, but not for batch channels or
> congestion control).
>
> For example in the vault use-case, it makes it possible to bump fees on
> the unvault tx by adding more inputs and a change output, as well as
> unvault multiple vaulted outputs in a single transaction.
>
> For spacechains, it makes it possible to add the spaceblock hash OP_RETURN
> and pay fees directly in the tx chain, instead of having to use an
> additional tx to prepare an output that gets spent in the tx chain  (see
> the diagram in [0]).
>
> > via `sha_sequences` and maybe also `sha_amounts`
>
> CTV does not commit to the input amounts. This has some practical
> implications:
>
> 1. If it is committed, sending an even slightly incorrect amount will make
> the covenant-encumbered spend path unusable.
>
> With CTV, sending a slightly lower amount results in slightly lower fees,
> while any extra gets spent/burned on fees. The covenant spend path only
> becomes unusable if the amount is too low to cover for the outputs (+relay
> fee for it to also be standard).
>
> 2. The ability to allow for additional inputs with unknown amounts makes
> it possible to fee-bump the covenant spending transaction (with whole utxos
> and no change). You can have one tapleaf for spending the covenant output
> alone, and another one for attaching an extra fee input to it.
>
> This also makes it possible to resolve the under-payment issue described
> in (1), by adding an input that covers the original intended amount.
>
> So my suggestion would be to either not cover `sha_amounts` in the msg
> hash, or to make it optional behind a flag.
>
> shesek
>
> [0] https://github.com/fiatjaf/simple-ctv-spacechain
>
> On Fri, Apr 22, 2022 at 2:23 PM darosior via bitcoin-dev <
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>
>> I would like to know people's sentiment about doing (a very slightly
>> tweaked version of) BIP118 in place of
>> (or before doing) BIP119.
>>
>> SIGHASH_ANYPREVOUT and its precedent iterations have been discussed for
>> over 6 years. It presents proven and
>> implemented usecases, that are demanded and (please someone correct me if
>> i'm wrong) more widely accepted than
>> CTV's.
>>
>> SIGHASH_ANYPREVOUTANYSCRIPT, if its "ANYONECANPAY" behaviour is made
>> optional [0], can emulate CTV just fine.
>> Sure then you can't have bare or Segwit v0 CTV, and it's a bit more
>> expensive to use. But we can consider CTV
>> an optimization of APO-AS covenants.
>>
>> CTV advocates have been presenting vaults as the flagship usecase.
>> Although as someone who've been trying to
>> implement practical vaults for the past 2 years i doubt CTV is necessary
>> nor sufficient for this (but still
>> useful!), using APO-AS covers it. And it's not a couple dozen more
>> virtual bytes that are going to matter for
>> a potential vault user.
>>
>> If after some time all of us who are currently dubious about CTV's stated
>> usecases are proven wrong by onchain
>> usage of a less efficient construction to achieve the same goal, we could
>> roll-out CTV as an optimization.  In
>> the meantime others will have been able to deploy new applications
>> leveraging ANYPREVOUT (Eltoo, blind
>> statechains, etc..[1]).
>>
>>
>> Given the interest in, and demand for, both simple covenants and better
>> offchain protocols it seems to me that
>> BIP118 is a soft fork candidate that could benefit more (if not most of)
>> Bitcoin users.
>> Actually i'd also be interested in knowing if people would oppose the
>> APO-AS part of BIP118, since it enables
>> CTV's features, for the same reason they'd oppose BIP119.
>>
>>
>> [0] That is, to not commit to the other inputs of the transaction (via
>> `sha_sequences` and maybe also
>> `sha_amounts`). Cf
>> https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0118.mediawiki#signature-message
>> .
>>
>> [1] https://anyprevout.xyz/ "Use Cases" section
>> _______________________________________________
>> bitcoin-dev mailing list
>> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>>
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>

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Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
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<div dir=3D"auto">The proposed use case for the ANYSCRIPT part of APOAS exp=
licitly doesn&#39;t commit to amount, so I&#39;d also assume it not be re-a=
dded or at least be able to be opened out.=C2=A0</div><br><div class=3D"gma=
il_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sat, Apr 30, 2022, 4:47 =
AM Nadav Ivgi via bitcoin-dev &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linux=
foundation.org">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></d=
iv><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left=
:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Hi darosior,<br></d=
iv><div></div><div><br></div><div></div><div><div>It&#39;s interesting to n=
ote that <span style=3D"font-family:monospace">APOAS|SINGLE</span> (with th=
e <span style=3D"font-family:monospace">ANYONECANPAY</span> behaviour and w=
ithout covering the spent input index) has some interesting uses for cases =
where the covenant only needs to restrict a single output (so useful for e.=
g. vaults or spacechains, but not for batch channels or congestion control)=
.</div><div><br></div><div>For example in the vault use-case, it makes it p=
ossible to bump fees on the unvault tx by adding more inputs and a change o=
utput, as well as unvault multiple vaulted outputs in a single transaction.=
<br></div><div><br></div><div>For spacechains, it makes it possible to add =
the spaceblock hash OP_RETURN and pay fees directly in the tx chain, instea=
d of having to use an additional tx to prepare an output that gets spent in=
 the tx chain=C2=A0 (see the diagram in [0]).</div><div></div></div><div><b=
r></div><div>&gt; via `sha_sequences` and maybe also `sha_amounts`</div><di=
v><br></div><div>CTV does not commit to the input amounts. This has some pr=
actical implications:<br></div><div><br></div><div>1. If it is committed, s=
ending an even slightly incorrect amount will make the covenant-encumbered =
spend path unusable.</div><div><br></div><div>With CTV, sending a slightly =
lower amount results in slightly lower fees, while any extra gets spent/bur=
ned on fees. The covenant spend path only becomes unusable if the amount is=
 too low to cover for the outputs (+relay fee for it to also be standard).<=
br></div><div><br></div><div>2. The ability to allow for additional inputs =
with unknown amounts makes it possible to fee-bump the covenant spending tr=
ansaction (with whole utxos and no change). You can have one tapleaf for sp=
ending the covenant output alone, and another one for attaching an extra fe=
e input to it.</div><div><br></div><div>This also makes it possible to reso=
lve the under-payment issue described in (1), by adding an input that cover=
s the original intended amount.<br></div><div><br></div><div>So my suggesti=
on would be to either not cover `sha_amounts` in the msg hash, or to make i=
t optional behind a flag.</div><div></div><div><br></div><div>shesek</div><=
div><br></div><div>[0] <a href=3D"https://github.com/fiatjaf/simple-ctv-spa=
cechain" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">https://github.com/fiatjaf/si=
mple-ctv-spacechain</a></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=
=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, Apr 22, 2022 at 2:23 PM darosior via =
bitcoin-dev &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" ta=
rget=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a=
>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px=
 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">I w=
ould like to know people&#39;s sentiment about doing (a very slightly tweak=
ed version of) BIP118 in place of<br>
(or before doing) BIP119.<br>
<br>
SIGHASH_ANYPREVOUT and its precedent iterations have been discussed for ove=
r 6 years. It presents proven and<br>
implemented usecases, that are demanded and (please someone correct me if i=
&#39;m wrong) more widely accepted than<br>
CTV&#39;s.<br>
<br>
SIGHASH_ANYPREVOUTANYSCRIPT, if its &quot;ANYONECANPAY&quot; behaviour is m=
ade optional [0], can emulate CTV just fine.<br>
Sure then you can&#39;t have bare or Segwit v0 CTV, and it&#39;s a bit more=
 expensive to use. But we can consider CTV<br>
an optimization of APO-AS covenants.<br>
<br>
CTV advocates have been presenting vaults as the flagship usecase. Although=
 as someone who&#39;ve been trying to<br>
implement practical vaults for the past 2 years i doubt CTV is necessary no=
r sufficient for this (but still<br>
useful!), using APO-AS covers it. And it&#39;s not a couple dozen more virt=
ual bytes that are going to matter for<br>
a potential vault user.<br>
<br>
If after some time all of us who are currently dubious about CTV&#39;s stat=
ed usecases are proven wrong by onchain<br>
usage of a less efficient construction to achieve the same goal, we could r=
oll-out CTV as an optimization.=C2=A0 In<br>
the meantime others will have been able to deploy new applications leveragi=
ng ANYPREVOUT (Eltoo, blind<br>
statechains, etc..[1]).<br>
<br>
<br>
Given the interest in, and demand for, both simple covenants and better off=
chain protocols it seems to me that<br>
BIP118 is a soft fork candidate that could benefit more (if not most of) Bi=
tcoin users.<br>
Actually i&#39;d also be interested in knowing if people would oppose the A=
PO-AS part of BIP118, since it enables<br>
CTV&#39;s features, for the same reason they&#39;d oppose BIP119.<br>
<br>
<br>
[0] That is, to not commit to the other inputs of the transaction (via `sha=
_sequences` and maybe also<br>
`sha_amounts`). Cf <a href=3D"https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/b=
ip-0118.mediawiki#signature-message" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target=
=3D"_blank">https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0118.mediawiki#=
signature-message</a>.<br>
<br>
[1] <a href=3D"https://anyprevout.xyz/" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" targe=
t=3D"_blank">https://anyprevout.xyz/</a> &quot;Use Cases&quot; section<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
bitcoin-dev mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank" =
rel=3D"noreferrer">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev" =
rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.linuxfoundati=
on.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev</a><br>
</blockquote></div>
_______________________________________________<br>
bitcoin-dev mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank" =
rel=3D"noreferrer">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev" =
rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.linuxfoundati=
on.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev</a><br>
</blockquote></div>

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