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Cc: Bitcoin Dev <bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net>
Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] Fees UI warning
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Jim,

It's great to see the many ways wallet authors try to protect users from
easy to make mistakes, especially against losing funds.

But this issues isn't confined to custom transaction - some wallet
implementations have a fee field and almost all wallets allow the fee rate
to be configured in preferences. Sanity checking is sensible where a user
can override the calculated fee. Some wallets don't allow the fee to be
adjusted at all, but quite a few do.

Drak


On 16 December 2013 10:46, Jim <jim618@fastmail.co.uk> wrote:

> Yes I saw that on reddit too.
>
> I think it applies mainly to custom transactions rather
> than where fees are calculated automatically.
>
> Another variant of not understanding change that loses
> people's bitcoins I have encountered is:
> 1) Import a private key of a brainwallet/ paper wallet.
> 2) Send a small amount of bitcoin from that key.
> 3) The user then secure deletes all copies of the wallet
> 'for security'. If they are not careful they can delete
> a change address with funds on it.
>
> In MultiBit I have tried to reduce this possibility by:
> 1) Hiding the ability to delete wallet (in the next version
> I am removing it entirely)
> 2) There is always a single key in a new wallet. When
> a user imports a key then that makes two. I always send
> the change to the second address, if it is available.
> (This is bad for privacy but at least lessens the chances
> that the funds become lost).
>
> If users are determined to use a brain wallet and
> secure delete every copy of the wallet after they use
> them you cannot stop them (it is their machine after all)
> But these two options help lessen the chance of bitcoin
> loss if they do.
>
> For the HD version of MultiBit we are removing the import
> of individual private keys entirely and only supporting HD
> addresses, primarily for safety reasons.
>
> Jim
>
> On Mon, Dec 16, 2013, at 10:13 AM, Drak wrote:
> > Not sure if this is the right place, but since a few wallet authors
> > congregate here I though it might be the best place.
> >
> > It seems every once in a while you see stories of people accidentally
> > paying huge fees. Today I read about a man who paid a 20.14BTC fee for a
> > 0.05 BTC transaction[1], oops. There was another recently where someone
> > paid a fee of about 200BTC which fortunately the pool operator refunded.
> >
> > It just occurs to me this kind of sad story could be averted if wallets
> > implemented a confirmation box if the fee amount seems crazy - for
> example,
> > if it's >10x what the default fee should be, or if it's greater than x%
> of
> > the sending amount. "the fee seems unusually high, are you really sure
> you
> > want to pay X in fees?"
> >
> > I realise the exact details of this might need to be fleshed out given we
> > want flexible fees, but it should be pretty simple to agree with what
> looks
> > like an unusually large fee according to the going rate.
> >
> > Drak
> >
> > [1]
> >
> http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1syu3h/i_lost_all_my_bitcoins_in_an_erroneous/
> >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Rapidly troubleshoot problems before they affect your business. Most IT
> > organizations don't have a clear picture of how application performance
> > affects their revenue. With AppDynamics, you get 100% visibility into
> your
> > Java,.NET, & PHP application. Start your 15-day FREE TRIAL of
> AppDynamics Pro!
> >
> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=84349831&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
> > _______________________________________________
> > Bitcoin-development mailing list
> > Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>
>
> --
> http://bitcoin-solutions.co.uk
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Rapidly troubleshoot problems before they affect your business. Most IT
> organizations don't have a clear picture of how application performance
> affects their revenue. With AppDynamics, you get 100% visibility into your
> Java,.NET, & PHP application. Start your 15-day FREE TRIAL of AppDynamics
> Pro!
> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=84349831&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>

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Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Jim,=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>It&#39;s great to=
 see the many ways wallet authors try to protect users from easy to make mi=
stakes, especially against losing funds.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>But=
 this issues isn&#39;t confined to custom transaction - some wallet impleme=
ntations have a fee field and almost all wallets allow the fee rate to be c=
onfigured in preferences. Sanity checking is sensible where a user can over=
ride the calculated fee. Some wallets don&#39;t allow the fee to be adjuste=
d at all, but quite a few do.<br>

</div><div><br></div><div>Drak<br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><b=
r><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 16 December 2013 10:46, Jim <span dir=
=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jim618@fastmail.co.uk" target=3D"_blank">jim=
618@fastmail.co.uk</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>

<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Yes I saw that on reddit too.<br>
<br>
I think it applies mainly to custom transactions rather<br>
than where fees are calculated automatically.<br>
<br>
Another variant of not understanding change that loses<br>
people&#39;s bitcoins I have encountered is:<br>
1) Import a private key of a brainwallet/ paper wallet.<br>
2) Send a small amount of bitcoin from that key.<br>
3) The user then secure deletes all copies of the wallet<br>
&#39;for security&#39;. If they are not careful they can delete<br>
a change address with funds on it.<br>
<br>
In MultiBit I have tried to reduce this possibility by:<br>
1) Hiding the ability to delete wallet (in the next version<br>
I am removing it entirely)<br>
2) There is always a single key in a new wallet. When<br>
a user imports a key then that makes two. I always send<br>
the change to the second address, if it is available.<br>
(This is bad for privacy but at least lessens the chances<br>
that the funds become lost).<br>
<br>
If users are determined to use a brain wallet and<br>
secure delete every copy of the wallet after they use<br>
them you cannot stop them (it is their machine after all)<br>
But these two options help lessen the chance of bitcoin<br>
loss if they do.<br>
<br>
For the HD version of MultiBit we are removing the import<br>
of individual private keys entirely and only supporting HD<br>
addresses, primarily for safety reasons.<br>
<br>
Jim<br>
<div><div class=3D"h5"><br>
On Mon, Dec 16, 2013, at 10:13 AM, Drak wrote:<br>
&gt; Not sure if this is the right place, but since a few wallet authors<br=
>
&gt; congregate here I though it might be the best place.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; It seems every once in a while you see stories of people accidentally<=
br>
&gt; paying huge fees. Today I read about a man who paid a 20.14BTC fee for=
 a<br>
&gt; 0.05 BTC transaction[1], oops. There was another recently where someon=
e<br>
&gt; paid a fee of about 200BTC which fortunately the pool operator refunde=
d.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; It just occurs to me this kind of sad story could be averted if wallet=
s<br>
&gt; implemented a confirmation box if the fee amount seems crazy - for exa=
mple,<br>
&gt; if it&#39;s &gt;10x what the default fee should be, or if it&#39;s gre=
ater than x% of<br>
&gt; the sending amount. &quot;the fee seems unusually high, are you really=
 sure you<br>
&gt; want to pay X in fees?&quot;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I realise the exact details of this might need to be fleshed out given=
 we<br>
&gt; want flexible fees, but it should be pretty simple to agree with what =
looks<br>
&gt; like an unusually large fee according to the going rate.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Drak<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; [1]<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1syu3h/i_lost_all_=
my_bitcoins_in_an_erroneous/" target=3D"_blank">http://www.reddit.com/r/Bit=
coin/comments/1syu3h/i_lost_all_my_bitcoins_in_an_erroneous/</a><br>
</div></div><div class=3D"im">&gt; ----------------------------------------=
--------------------------------------<br>
&gt; Rapidly troubleshoot problems before they affect your business. Most I=
T<br>
&gt; organizations don&#39;t have a clear picture of how application perfor=
mance<br>
&gt; affects their revenue. With AppDynamics, you get 100% visibility into =
your<br>
&gt; Java,.NET, &amp; PHP application. Start your 15-day FREE TRIAL of AppD=
ynamics Pro!<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=3D84349831&am=
p;iu=3D/4140/ostg.clktrk" target=3D"_blank">http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net=
/gampad/clk?id=3D84349831&amp;iu=3D/4140/ostg.clktrk</a><br>
&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; Bitcoin-development mailing list<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net">Bitcoin-d=
evelopment@lists.sourceforge.net</a><br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-develo=
pment" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitco=
in-development</a><br>
<br>
<br>
--<br>
</div><a href=3D"http://bitcoin-solutions.co.uk" target=3D"_blank">http://b=
itcoin-solutions.co.uk</a><br>
<div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5"><br>
---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
---<br>
Rapidly troubleshoot problems before they affect your business. Most IT<br>
organizations don&#39;t have a clear picture of how application performance=
<br>
affects their revenue. With AppDynamics, you get 100% visibility into your<=
br>
Java,.NET, &amp; PHP application. Start your 15-day FREE TRIAL of AppDynami=
cs Pro!<br>
<a href=3D"http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=3D84349831&amp;iu=
=3D/4140/ostg.clktrk" target=3D"_blank">http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gam=
pad/clk?id=3D84349831&amp;iu=3D/4140/ostg.clktrk</a><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Bitcoin-development mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net">Bitcoin-develo=
pment@lists.sourceforge.net</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development=
" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-de=
velopment</a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>

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