1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
30
31
32
33
34
35
36
37
38
39
40
41
42
43
44
45
46
47
48
49
50
51
52
53
54
55
56
57
58
59
60
61
62
63
64
65
66
67
68
69
70
71
72
73
74
75
76
77
78
79
80
81
82
83
84
85
86
87
88
89
90
91
92
93
94
95
96
97
98
99
100
101
102
103
104
105
106
107
108
109
110
111
112
113
114
115
116
117
118
119
120
121
122
123
124
125
126
127
128
129
130
131
132
133
134
135
136
137
138
139
140
141
142
143
144
145
146
147
148
149
150
151
152
153
154
155
156
157
158
159
160
161
162
163
164
165
166
167
168
169
170
171
172
173
174
175
176
177
178
179
180
181
182
183
184
185
186
187
188
189
190
191
192
193
194
195
196
197
198
199
200
201
202
203
204
205
206
207
208
209
210
211
212
213
214
215
216
217
218
219
220
221
222
223
224
225
226
227
228
229
230
231
232
233
234
235
236
237
238
239
240
241
242
243
244
245
246
247
248
249
250
251
252
253
|
Delivery-date: Mon, 09 Jun 2025 16:11:35 -0700
Received: from mail-yw1-f185.google.com ([209.85.128.185])
by mail.fairlystable.org with esmtps (TLS1.3) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256
(Exim 4.94.2)
(envelope-from <bitcoindev+bncBAABBHOUTXBAMGQEK2TH7XI@googlegroups.com>)
id 1uOleQ-0000SH-S5
for bitcoindev@gnusha.org; Mon, 09 Jun 2025 16:11:35 -0700
Received: by mail-yw1-f185.google.com with SMTP id 00721157ae682-7111ff9f2d4sf18088277b3.0
for <bitcoindev@gnusha.org>; Mon, 09 Jun 2025 16:11:35 -0700 (PDT)
ARC-Seal: i=2; a=rsa-sha256; t=1749510689; cv=pass;
d=google.com; s=arc-20240605;
b=CYtP3VWpYwu6zII+UQVDYTPCQrIO/iz0FZJ6zRglpt4DRi6P8Xxs3XGw0yeTgAmtaG
rL+ZbTW+De9IaRrDIpf9jrLg1B1L1VgvT7tzBuMtizLXTflB/cY20Fb1ZGep7B3lMZPJ
VQTaWsk7wQoN06py2vnt5LdU7PI2JmfbvPchZRhGstjN/BNuqjHEVGQc4iCTIPn9EVB9
oiE8Q+kCcVNp8Q3tuWhTSEKfUkmK5rolHaRNEukpo7HaWFb1ZNPJEQXj3obbgYwWwuOa
zQnTJAZmeNUNuL5t0bLho++/YMc4czaXKBGp9KFL+pWG1Df1nfj60oZuyHuX1ZwRUVQ9
bttQ==
ARC-Message-Signature: i=2; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=arc-20240605;
h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post
:list-id:mailing-list:precedence:in-reply-to:content-disposition
:mime-version:references:message-id:subject:cc:to:from:date:sender
:dkim-signature;
bh=p/3dRA2Y8JrQJ70pSSEslTcemi/eACGrqLh2AcmAOKI=;
fh=LCi+mOdRW9rUTWtvj/1RcJUwbL2tiFgo1wk9ULQ9Ua0=;
b=RFy9cCpHGtkjN2fOMJrEIGd/Fofo64LeD5X/EdIovdVXQCmffzgl0l6oUZjsdi5OsS
5/cUW00OwezRdvoI2ywfkmQKNQtwh9zB4nVqxC2OPbTxBBiR3X3v44ir+qoOZhzxa/5M
9A/LKAO0HBhqelz9+Io3Cvkf/xb0MeUFdq+kWczKoDmx9vIXVlkV8DSTOB1rBu5kNsN5
N/LaXjqG6ttsKu9QKCfP6CesS+6bwd6jBIe5684qTWXI+AFaO0bCxeiTYrxpRLp1XhtD
dFlcnR8qtopQ2FnapR386JZXz3JVmX4aHg69EHU7JEANvWGaYTCo3pd5VZ7HIHO7Otyh
EJRg==;
darn=gnusha.org
ARC-Authentication-Results: i=2; gmr-mx.google.com;
dkim=pass header.i=@mail.wpsoftware.net header.s=default header.b=d1JrvFYP;
spf=pass (google.com: domain of apoelstra@wpsoftware.net designates 66.183.0.127 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=apoelstra@wpsoftware.net;
dmarc=pass (p=NONE sp=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=wpsoftware.net
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
d=googlegroups.com; s=20230601; t=1749510689; x=1750115489; darn=gnusha.org;
h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post
:list-id:mailing-list:precedence:x-original-authentication-results
:x-original-sender:in-reply-to:content-disposition:mime-version
:references:message-id:subject:cc:to:from:date:sender:from:to:cc
:subject:date:message-id:reply-to;
bh=p/3dRA2Y8JrQJ70pSSEslTcemi/eACGrqLh2AcmAOKI=;
b=pDn+h1I05HidZbrVGcyCw9jxUIye/+xiMCuVW6F/vyMIhGwNVkfTs/rIBykQ0K+9m7
VMGyW6s6vsdEMlgtDTFjs9MaxTwJMuHKx9/a/jDsVqKfMf2m6E2XkLiGY0rn3E695T/9
h9iyW/BHVfCIQAGYJw6OWpesYlHR+a5hpkUE7qFfNS24E2Yh+oVtSZqfKrOLvqefTejT
gGb9blVSg1yWXepN4JU/pll1IjTjOnEBgzvrNpNcxlUFSuH4KZIjdumV907s++TrGoDG
G2Y3JMd9Wcmh0MX1BabbbsF64JpF//WUMYbVRGa8Ec3uCkS0cOi3Xeo5v6Jl1symLVBo
FY/w==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1749510689; x=1750115489;
h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post
:list-id:mailing-list:precedence:x-original-authentication-results
:x-original-sender:in-reply-to:content-disposition:mime-version
:references:message-id:subject:cc:to:from:date:x-beenthere
:x-gm-message-state:sender:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id
:reply-to;
bh=p/3dRA2Y8JrQJ70pSSEslTcemi/eACGrqLh2AcmAOKI=;
b=kMTtnQSJvyssr0PEWLuK3vuGjjGWrILpoqwguOGa5vq19f8fQJpeNippO6znesFriT
MQlJraXA6A2n7VjYgQLlCKt3MSHM6Bhmz/StTJ5/nZrlE30TaSDD8ocGpkc7T/zKbUrj
OgZbCvvcRglPI14xyKSpI2k+PLJHBipQUjfOChWQ7TETBfFR9u6/qjQCnK6albO9apuq
Zd6599ofSSFhFzOez4Xh593NSC4JsK3vsKUxZwIpbgcoLx26DELJ9n2NiadNJT8kx13C
0U/oYg2mRyRGO22KZnK9f4WyqHO4tt+C25M4I2dOwGnZDnxZp8/5vs6OMEnLy0IsDD57
cGtQ==
Sender: bitcoindev@googlegroups.com
X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=2; AJvYcCUe15a3DZ+X7Hz1/r+/nQ7Ii2iTVrY2dIuBJopOQHHcPRJ1g8JS5Lfo9THGuK97YL+VHUq+0h7nj3AD@gnusha.org
X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YyCGNATzAHvgFOG201m6w3h1aSvfm2dVIqgnX70bfUOW6Rdn5TJ
qt6zG+IQQxzMkHvqFW4uCsDbH0sOCZxy6qPLafibfs+t+GvYMVcuJJd6
X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IHwOMpOaKcTKfHhCN1CBU+OY5xmejY/QLGy0orjraLzj3CVTPDD76BnDuQLyMQzUM20zsg5VQ==
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6902:461b:b0:e7d:a4a7:439b with SMTP id 3f1490d57ef6-e81a254ebafmr20810985276.48.1749510688925;
Mon, 09 Jun 2025 16:11:28 -0700 (PDT)
X-BeenThere: bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; h=AZMbMZeRd5CNRuKeL/cvCRf+5Ty2oNvkjHulQOlFrF6gNPjScQ==
Received: by 2002:a05:6902:320e:b0:e81:d280:4c15 with SMTP id
3f1490d57ef6-e81d2804e5als2035625276.2.-pod-prod-01-us; Mon, 09 Jun 2025
16:11:25 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: by 2002:a05:690c:360e:b0:70f:8913:ed66 with SMTP id 00721157ae682-710f7787260mr207658517b3.38.1749510685674;
Mon, 09 Jun 2025 16:11:25 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 2002:a05:690c:ed6:b0:70d:e0e5:164f with SMTP id 00721157ae682-710f8f40b91ms7b3;
Mon, 9 Jun 2025 16:03:03 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: by 2002:a05:690c:6f83:b0:70a:192d:103 with SMTP id 00721157ae682-710f776c60cmr212194097b3.28.1749510182495;
Mon, 09 Jun 2025 16:03:02 -0700 (PDT)
ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; t=1749510182; cv=none;
d=google.com; s=arc-20240605;
b=T5MdQ9rIyUKnzAN6C8x3HQaMUHGI4cbD3xTSVfPJmqPDvkOmfIQmxcbMKbvBJ9wy8K
eGAuckA1ykbRaUrTSjnJL3xY4dxj46uH7lObb4srJSXPYMGTy7avHWGS0+xP6pilyAc4
3v3+V0obMW41xJxfM2fUV7M8UHUyYP/nnGZrnaQoW0XS/wCSJf/ZLNSMH7c/F9JswV6+
ULk0HZN+cS25K4Js3HJDnkNFWij7J/MLLnFfYYOfO+nkr/StkNav9ap3SQ7IebnselrD
5bu6/GkNuy/ARDg4CrSEVhQn3+i98SdeY3k2MnkffjG35Bf10kqp8939FhKKnOopSCnZ
82CQ==
ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=arc-20240605;
h=in-reply-to:content-disposition:mime-version:references:message-id
:subject:cc:to:from:dkim-signature:date;
bh=bq2sF6NjU40zwBHh8EJ77ypkHcjBaZ7J5FqS/7/dHho=;
fh=xRLTPwsOc0yMZjuLIr4vuqt8580clu0floZnNJ9ao8Y=;
b=UnFMbGeLVfdIFSnGZzZXG6Ku8Z+BmEG8d2LJpXNDIA5fWCkVVBr/gRV/kzj8oslmJX
l4zlGZQNAKVd64LsEJR1sSkthuvBy0ru3oAFZgRMKoZtMbAfMoElW9dhzaYQTVxP34SZ
cORaBiMUZDPdrK4LziCqlpWtIrAOITz7SMatxI/F6Ug0wpXnbeyTVh2YzTF5TQKpYEWL
c0dyjsLirf6HUWxkSlEBNn+efFnrj4XMoZXoOV3fINQbEBzNdArK0aIcxRBQg2SHwGkF
EHE6YWV5fPNKoMUHF5xZ4p0a9ZqGHyOpKq2mMLnD/M9aukt89XO3ckP85AbyDVs+WzlV
0YnQ==;
dara=google.com
ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; gmr-mx.google.com;
dkim=pass header.i=@mail.wpsoftware.net header.s=default header.b=d1JrvFYP;
spf=pass (google.com: domain of apoelstra@wpsoftware.net designates 66.183.0.127 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=apoelstra@wpsoftware.net;
dmarc=pass (p=NONE sp=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=wpsoftware.net
Received: from mail.wpsoftware.net ([66.183.0.127])
by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 00721157ae682-710f99a8ec9si4250967b3.2.2025.06.09.16.03.02
for <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>
(version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256);
Mon, 09 Jun 2025 16:03:02 -0700 (PDT)
Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of apoelstra@wpsoftware.net designates 66.183.0.127 as permitted sender) client-ip=66.183.0.127;
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2025 23:02:58 +0000
From: Andrew Poelstra <apoelstra@wpsoftware.net>
To: James O'Beirne <james.obeirne@gmail.com>
Cc: Bitcoin Development Mailing List <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] CTV + CSFS: a letter
Message-ID: <aEdoIvOgNNtT6L4s@mail.wpsoftware.net>
References: <a86c2737-db79-4f54-9c1d-51beeb765163n@googlegroups.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256;
protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="iqSkJPAJqhzlcaIi"
Content-Disposition: inline
In-Reply-To: <a86c2737-db79-4f54-9c1d-51beeb765163n@googlegroups.com>
X-Original-Sender: apoelstra@wpsoftware.net
X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass
header.i=@mail.wpsoftware.net header.s=default header.b=d1JrvFYP;
spf=pass (google.com: domain of apoelstra@wpsoftware.net designates
66.183.0.127 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=apoelstra@wpsoftware.net;
dmarc=pass (p=NONE sp=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=wpsoftware.net
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com
List-ID: <bitcoindev.googlegroups.com>
X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512
List-Post: <https://groups.google.com/group/bitcoindev/post>, <mailto:bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>
List-Help: <https://groups.google.com/support/>, <mailto:bitcoindev+help@googlegroups.com>
List-Archive: <https://groups.google.com/group/bitcoindev
List-Subscribe: <https://groups.google.com/group/bitcoindev/subscribe>, <mailto:bitcoindev+subscribe@googlegroups.com>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:googlegroups-manage+786775582512+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com>,
<https://groups.google.com/group/bitcoindev/subscribe>
X-Spam-Score: -0.8 (/)
--iqSkJPAJqhzlcaIi
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Disposition: inline
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Le Mon, Jun 09, 2025 at 04:40:52AM -0700, James O'Beirne a =C3=A9crit :
> Good morning,
>=20
> A letter has been published advocating for the final review and
> activation of OP_CHECKTEMPLATEVERIFY (BIP-119) and OP_CHECKSIGFROMSTACK
> (BIP-348).=20
>=20
> The full text of the letter can be found at https://ctv-csfs.com. It is
> reproduced below.
>
Hi all,
James, thanks for posting the letter. Matt, Antoine -- thanks for
replying quickly and respectfully even though you disagree with its
contents. Let me try to clarify my stance and why I signed onto the
letter.
First, the specific choice of CTV + CSFS would not be my first choice
on technical grounds. But what I'd like to see is something that is
technically "good enough" to enable vaults and some new script usecases,
while avoiding things that are politically toxic (which seems to be
pretty-much everything, but maybe right now does not include CTV+CSFS?).
So any arguments about CTV+CSFS on the technical merits I think are
great and within the purview of "review and integration" that the letter
talks about. (The word "final" I think is too strong and in retrospect
I think we should've dropped it. But it's super difficult when writing
these things to identify which specific points of language need to be
changed.)
Second, regarding the ultimatum language -- it was quite difficult to
strike a balance between "Core consists of volunteers working on their
on projects, with no obligation to anybody, and certainly no obligation
to drive forward consensus changes" and "this is a letter that says
nothing substantial at all".
The message that I want to communicate is: Bitcoin Core, like many
stakeholders, can veto any consensus changes because there will never be
a large enough contigent of the Bitcoin community confident to rush in
where angels dare to tread. But furthermore, if nobody in Core wants to
engage at all with consensus changes, then the result is effectively the
same as a veto.
Therefore, if we want to see an increase in script expressivity, somebody
on the Core team needs to help champion it. (There's no one in particular
I imagine this "somebody" to be, and I suppose you could accuse me of
hypocrisy since I'm not volunteering myself, even though I have the
social and technical knowledge to help. It could be, and probably would
have to be, somebody who isn't currently active on Core. But it needs to
be somebody willing and able to work within the Core review process, to
deal with ongoing rebases, etc.)
Third, I really really hope that this letter does not lead to further
brigading or twitter fights or whatever bleeding into the Github repo.
(This is the one point where I think that my fellow cosigners agree with
me fully.) But on the other hand, I don't think that I personally should
shy away from discussion to mitigate that risk; it needs to be mitigated
by more agressive moderation or by higher barriers to entry for people
posting on Core PRs.
Best
Andrew
--=20
Andrew Poelstra
Director, Blockstream Research
Email: apoelstra at wpsoftware.net
Web: https://www.wpsoftware.net/andrew
The sun is always shining in space
-Justin Lewis-Webster
--=20
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/=
aEdoIvOgNNtT6L4s%40mail.wpsoftware.net.
--iqSkJPAJqhzlcaIi
Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEkPnKPD7Je+ki35VexYjWPOQbl8EFAmhHaB0ACgkQxYjWPOQb
l8EEigf/U8p7YF0KjT8QecAGkQUv47FUNpGU+lV4+hfaHw0Je3nZxByBuSLok8Rb
wyxjhjtj49lVgqEYCbKSMG9c0Uan6LT9jUvO2xk67KmvnUfibIturkB8ErFFt1WX
qoluo7FfHfG+bFdW/mKBb+G14aUAIp7OZ8xZI7tBbB4VkwH2Jv0hSwAQxJF9Xvlx
Bjtsl7qWm+ZMEKia0/3cpTqxDcZvDZjEL0dnKCB0vfTmARzdosV4V2D2Izl3h3N4
np8R+wvTNqAv2EHG5VJUsE3lAujUCsHcDh1YCAKJ8v5GHVNlblDLJtOqgqHfZkTG
XxFhAzyrYE57i7t/FEQVXq+W9Wg49A==
=X3O2
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
--iqSkJPAJqhzlcaIi--
|
