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Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2011 10:22:57 -0500
Message-ID: <CALf2ePw2zcxrPFfQtJrDYSNWQ-rfNPv1R7LnH=8MHApe3_D1+Q@mail.gmail.com>
From: Alan Reiner <etotheipi@gmail.com>
To: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
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Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] multisig,
	op_eval and lock_time/sequence...
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Actually,  I'm not sure if your solution works,  because it relies on
broadcasting a tx to the network that isn't valid.   I believe that the
first tx in your proposal will be rejected and thus you'll need to exchange
the tx's offline.

However,  third-parties could pretty easily and conveniently host a service
for this kind of exchange.

--Sent from my overpriced smartphone
On Nov 9, 2011 9:43 AM, "Alan Reiner" <etotheipi@gmail.com> wrote:

> That's what my proposal was for, in BIP 0010:
>
> https://github.com/genjix/**bips/blob/master/bip-0010.md<https://github.c=
om/genjix/bips/blob/master/bip-0010.md>
>
> However, I just found a minor problem with it that should be addressed if
> we want to enable super-lightweight clients that only sign tx's without
> needing the blockchain.  Simply that the TxIns don't contain the value of
> the TxOuts they are spending, which means the dumb tx-signers with no
> blockchain can't tell how much input there is.  They can only see the
> output values and recipients, which means they can't figure out the tx fe=
e,
> or how much money is in each of the TxIns they are signing.
>
> And most users/clients will have access to the blockchain, so it's not a
> dealbreaker.  But it's something to consider.  Otherwise, I think this is=
 a
> big step towards bringing this complicatedprotocol a little closer to
> Earth...
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 11/09/2011 05:22 AM, Michael Gr=F8nager wrote:
>
>> Hi All,
>>
>> Along with the multisig/op_eval BIPs (11/12) I am considering how the
>> actual client functionality could be.
>>
>> Some of you might already have the solution for this - if not I would
>> like to propose the following...
>>
>> Lets consider the 2 of 3 multisig - and lets say I now have some coins
>> hence only redeemable using 2 key signatures. So when I want to spend th=
em
>> I would do:
>>
>> 1. from client1 I issue a transaction containing one of the signatures,
>> with a locktime e.g. 10 minutes from now and a sequence of 0. This
>> transaction is now posted to the p2p network.
>>
>> 2. client2 discovers the transaction and that it will affect its wallet.
>> It hence modifies the transaction to includes also the second signature,
>> changes the sequence to 0xFFFFFFFF=3Dfinal and the lock_time to 0 and
>> retransmits the transaction.
>>
>> 3. The transaction is now valid and final and will be approved by the
>> miners.
>>
>> However, for this setup to be possible, we need to reenable the
>> replacement of transaction in the client....
>>
>> Anyone working on this now ?
>>
>> Alternatively, the transactions would need to be sent between clients
>> using another protocol...
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Michael
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------**------------------------------**
>> ------------------
>> RSA(R) Conference 2012
>> Save $700 by Nov 18
>> Register now
>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/rsa-**sfdev2dev1 <http://p.sf.net/sfu/rsa-sfdev2dev1=
>
>> ______________________________**_________________
>> Bitcoin-development mailing list
>> Bitcoin-development@lists.**sourceforge.net<Bitcoin-development@lists.so=
urceforge.net>
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/**lists/listinfo/bitcoin-**development<htt=
ps://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development>
>>
>
>

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<p>Actually,=A0 I&#39;m not sure if your solution works,=A0 because it reli=
es on broadcasting a tx to the network that isn&#39;t valid.=A0=A0 I believ=
e that the first tx in your proposal will be rejected and thus you&#39;ll n=
eed to exchange the tx&#39;s offline. </p>

<p>However,=A0 third-parties could pretty easily and conveniently host a se=
rvice for this kind of exchange. </p>
<p>--Sent from my overpriced smartphone </p>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Nov 9, 2011 9:43 AM, &quot;Alan Reiner&quot; =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:etotheipi@gmail.com">etotheipi@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrot=
e:<br type=3D"attribution"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margi=
n:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
That&#39;s what my proposal was for, in BIP 0010:<br>
<br>
<a href=3D"https://github.com/genjix/bips/blob/master/bip-0010.md" target=
=3D"_blank">https://github.com/genjix/<u></u>bips/blob/master/bip-0010.md</=
a><br>
<br>
However, I just found a minor problem with it that should be addressed if w=
e want to enable super-lightweight clients that only sign tx&#39;s without =
needing the blockchain. =A0Simply that the TxIns don&#39;t contain the valu=
e of the TxOuts they are spending, which means the dumb tx-signers with no =
blockchain can&#39;t tell how much input there is. =A0They can only see the=
 output values and recipients, which means they can&#39;t figure out the tx=
 fee, or how much money is in each of the TxIns they are signing.<br>

<br>
And most users/clients will have access to the blockchain, so it&#39;s not =
a dealbreaker. =A0But it&#39;s something to consider. =A0Otherwise, I think=
 this is a big step towards bringing this complicatedprotocol a little clos=
er to Earth...<br>

<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On 11/09/2011 05:22 AM, Michael Gr=F8nager wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Hi All,<br>
<br>
Along with the multisig/op_eval BIPs (11/12) I am considering how the actua=
l client functionality could be.<br>
<br>
Some of you might already have the solution for this - if not I would like =
to propose the following...<br>
<br>
Lets consider the 2 of 3 multisig - and lets say I now have some coins henc=
e only redeemable using 2 key signatures. So when I want to spend them I wo=
uld do:<br>
<br>
1. from client1 I issue a transaction containing one of the signatures, wit=
h a locktime e.g. 10 minutes from now and a sequence of 0. This transaction=
 is now posted to the p2p network.<br>
<br>
2. client2 discovers the transaction and that it will affect its wallet. It=
 hence modifies the transaction to includes also the second signature, chan=
ges the sequence to 0xFFFFFFFF=3Dfinal and the lock_time to 0 and retransmi=
ts the transaction.<br>

<br>
3. The transaction is now valid and final and will be approved by the miner=
s.<br>
<br>
However, for this setup to be possible, we need to reenable the replacement=
 of transaction in the client....<br>
<br>
Anyone working on this now ?<br>
<br>
Alternatively, the transactions would need to be sent between clients using=
 another protocol...<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
<br>
Michael<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<u></u>------------------------------<u></u>-=
-----------------<br>
RSA(R) Conference 2012<br>
Save $700 by Nov 18<br>
Register now<br>
<a href=3D"http://p.sf.net/sfu/rsa-sfdev2dev1" target=3D"_blank">http://p.s=
f.net/sfu/rsa-<u></u>sfdev2dev1</a><br>
______________________________<u></u>_________________<br>
Bitcoin-development mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net" target=3D"_bla=
nk">Bitcoin-development@lists.<u></u>sourceforge.net</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development=
" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.sourceforge.net/<u></u>lists/listinfo/bit=
coin-<u></u>development</a><br>
</blockquote>
<br>
</blockquote></div>

--f46d04426dd4d6fa9304b14edc11--