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Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Hard fork proposal from last week's meeting
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I believe nearly everyone at Bitcoin Unlimited would be supportive of a =
UTXO check-pointing scheme. I=E2=80=99d love to see this happen, as it =
would greatly reduce the time needed to get a new node up-and-running, =
for node operators who are comfortable trusting these commitments. =20
I=E2=80=99m confident that we could work with the miners who we have =
good relationships with to start including the root hash of the =
(lagging) UTXO set in their coinbase transactions, in order to begin =
transforming this idea into reality. We could also issue regular =
transactions from =E2=80=9Csemi-trusted=E2=80=9D addresses controlled by =
known people that include the same root hash in an OP_RETURN output, =
which would allow cross-checking against the miners=E2=80=99 UTXO =
commitments, as part of this initial =E2=80=9Cprototype=E2=80=9D system.
This would "get the ball rolling" on UTXO commitments in a =
permissionless way (no one can stop us from doing this). If the results =
from this prototype commitment scheme were positive, then perhaps there =
would be support from the community and miners to enforce a new rule =
which requires the (lagging) root hashes be included in new blocks. At =
that point, the UTXO commitment scheme is no longer a prototype but a =
trusted feature of the Bitcoin network. =20
On that topic, are there any existing proposals detailing a canonical =
ordering of the UTXO set and a scheme to calculate the root hash?
Best regards,
Peter
> On Mar 29, 2017, at 12:33 PM, Daniele Pinna via bitcoin-dev =
<bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>=20
> What about periodically committing the entire UTXO set to a special =
checkpoint block which becomes the new de facto Genesis block?=20
>=20
> Daniele=20
>=20
> ------------------------------
>=20
> Message: 5
> Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2017 16:41:29 +0000
> From: Andrew Johnson <andrew.johnson83@gmail.com =
<mailto:andrew.johnson83@gmail.com>>
> To: David Vorick <david.vorick@gmail.com =
<mailto:david.vorick@gmail.com>>
> Cc: Bitcoin Dev <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org =
<mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>>
> Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Hard fork proposal from last week's meeting
> Message-ID:
> =
<CAAy62_+JtoAuM-RsrAAp5eiGiO+OHLDjzqgbnF2De7TUU7TyYg@mail.gmail.com =
<mailto:CAAy62_%2BJtoAuM-RsrAAp5eiGiO%2BOHLDjzqgbnF2De7TUU7TyYg@mail.gmail=
.com>>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"utf-8"
>=20
> I believe that as we continue to add users to the system by scaling
> capacity that we will see more new nodes appear, but I'm at a bit of a =
loss
> as to how to empirically prove it.
>=20
> I do see your point on increasing load on archival nodes, but the =
majority
> of that load is going to come from new nodes coming online, they're =
the
> only ones going after very old blocks. I could see that as a =
potential
> attack vector, overwhelm the archival nodes by spinning up new nodes
> constantly, therefore making it difficult for a "real" new node to get =
up
> to speed in a reasonable amount of time.
>=20
> Perhaps the answer there would be a way to pay an archival node a =
small
> amount of bitcoin in order to retrieve blocks older than a certain =
cutoff?
> Include an IP address for the node asking for the data as metadata in =
the
> transaction... Archival nodes could set and publish their own policy, =
let
> the market decide what those older blocks are worth. Would also help =
to
> incentivize running archival node, which we do need. Of course, this =
isn't
> very user friendly.
>=20
> We can take this to bitcoin-discuss, if we're getting too far off =
topic.
>=20
>=20
> On Wed, Mar 29, 2017 at 11:25 AM David Vorick <david.vorick@gmail.com =
<mailto:david.vorick@gmail.com>>
> wrote:
>=20
> >
> > On Mar 29, 2017 12:20 PM, "Andrew Johnson" =
<andrew.johnson83@gmail.com <mailto:andrew.johnson83@gmail.com>>
> > wrote:
> >
> > What's stopping these users from running a pruned node? Not every =
node
> > needs to store a complete copy of the blockchain.
> >
> >
> > Pruned nodes are not the default configuration, if it was the =
default
> > configuration then I think you would see far more users running a =
pruned
> > node.
> >
> > But that would also substantially increase the burden on archive =
nodes.
> >
> >
> > Further discussion about disk space requirements should be taken to
> > another thread.
> >
> >
> > --
> Andrew Johnson
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: =
<http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/attachments/201703=
29/9b48ebe3/attachment.html =
<http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/attachments/201703=
29/9b48ebe3/attachment.html>>
>=20
> ------------------------------
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
--Apple-Mail=_041E4DBB-3309-4DBE-967F-6D2C85BD0511
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
charset=utf-8
<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">I believe nearly everyone at Bitcoin Unlimited would be =
supportive of a UTXO check-pointing scheme. I=E2=80=99d love to =
see this happen, as it would greatly reduce the time needed to get a new =
node up-and-running, for node operators who are comfortable trusting =
these commitments. <div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">I=E2=80=99m confident that we could work with the miners who =
we have good relationships with to start including the root hash of the =
(lagging) UTXO set in their coinbase transactions, in order to begin =
transforming this idea into reality. We could also issue regular =
transactions from =E2=80=9Csemi-trusted=E2=80=9D addresses controlled by =
known people that include the same root hash in an OP_RETURN output, =
which would allow cross-checking against the miners=E2=80=99 UTXO =
commitments, as part of this initial =E2=80=9Cprototype=E2=80=9D =
system.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">This =
would "get the ball rolling" on UTXO commitments in a permissionless way =
(no one can stop us from doing this). If the results from this prototype =
commitment scheme were positive, then perhaps there would be support =
from the community and miners to enforce a new rule which requires the =
(lagging) root hashes be included in new blocks. At that point, =
the UTXO commitment scheme is no longer a prototype but a trusted =
feature of the Bitcoin network. <div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">On that topic, are there any existing =
proposals detailing a canonical ordering of the UTXO set and a scheme to =
calculate the root hash?</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Best regards,</div><div class=3D"">Peter<br class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On =
Mar 29, 2017, at 12:33 PM, Daniele Pinna via bitcoin-dev <<a =
href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" =
class=3D"">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>> wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"auto" =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"auto" class=3D"">What about periodically =
committing the entire UTXO set to a special checkpoint block which =
becomes the new de facto Genesis block? </div><div dir=3D"auto" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div dir=3D"auto" =
class=3D"">Daniele </div><div dir=3D"auto" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div dir=3D"auto" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px" =
class=3D"">------------------------------</span><br =
style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px" class=3D""><br =
style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px" class=3D"">Message: =
5</span><br style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px" =
class=3D"">Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2017 16:41:29 +0000</span><br =
style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px" class=3D"">From: =
Andrew Johnson <</span><a href=3D"mailto:andrew.johnson83@gmail.com" =
style=3D"text-decoration:none;color:rgb(66,133,244);font-family:sans-serif=
;font-size:13.696px" class=3D"">andrew.johnson83@gmail.com</a><span =
style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px" =
class=3D"">></span><br =
style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px" class=3D"">To: David =
Vorick <</span><a href=3D"mailto:david.vorick@gmail.com" =
style=3D"text-decoration:none;color:rgb(66,133,244);font-family:sans-serif=
;font-size:13.696px" class=3D"">david.vorick@gmail.com</a><span =
style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px" =
class=3D"">></span><br =
style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px" class=3D"">Cc: =
Bitcoin Dev <</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" =
style=3D"text-decoration:none;color:rgb(66,133,244);font-family:sans-serif=
;font-size:13.696px" class=3D"">bitcoin-dev@lists.<wbr =
class=3D"">linuxfoundation.org</a><span =
style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px" =
class=3D"">></span><br =
style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px" class=3D"">Subject: =
Re: [bitcoin-dev] Hard fork proposal from last week's meeting</span><br =
style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px" =
class=3D"">Message-ID:</span><br =
style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px" class=3D""> =
<</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:CAAy62_%2BJtoAuM-RsrAAp5eiGiO%2BOHLDjzqgbnF2De7TUU7TyYg@mai=
l.gmail.com" =
style=3D"text-decoration:none;color:rgb(66,133,244);font-family:sans-serif=
;font-size:13.696px" class=3D"">CAAy62_+JtoAuM-RsrAAp5eiGiO+<wbr =
class=3D"">OHLDjzqgbnF2De7TUU7TyYg@mail.<wbr class=3D"">gmail.com</a><span=
style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px" =
class=3D"">></span><br =
style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px" =
class=3D"">Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"utf-8"</span><br =
style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px" class=3D""><br =
style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px" class=3D"">I believe =
that as we continue to add users to the system by scaling</span><br =
style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px" class=3D"">capacity =
that we will see more new nodes appear, but I'm at a bit of a =
loss</span><br style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px" =
class=3D"">as to how to empirically prove it.</span><br =
style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px" class=3D""><br =
style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px" class=3D"">I do see =
your point on increasing load on archival nodes, but the =
majority</span><br style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px" =
class=3D"">of that load is going to come from new nodes coming online, =
they're the</span><br style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px" =
class=3D"">only ones going after very old blocks. I could =
see that as a potential</span><br =
style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px" class=3D"">attack =
vector, overwhelm the archival nodes by spinning up new nodes</span><br =
style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px" class=3D"">constantly,=
therefore making it difficult for a "real" new node to get up</span><br =
style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px" class=3D"">to speed =
in a reasonable amount of time.</span><br =
style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px" class=3D""><br =
style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px" class=3D"">Perhaps =
the answer there would be a way to pay an archival node a =
small</span><br style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px" =
class=3D"">amount of bitcoin in order to retrieve blocks older than a =
certain cutoff?</span><br =
style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px" class=3D"">Include =
an IP address for the node asking for the data as metadata in =
the</span><br style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px" =
class=3D"">transaction... Archival nodes could set and publish =
their own policy, let</span><br =
style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px" class=3D"">the =
market decide what those older blocks are worth. Would also help =
to</span><br style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px" =
class=3D"">incentivize running archival node, which we do need. Of =
course, this isn't</span><br =
style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px" class=3D"">very user =
friendly.</span><br style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px" =
class=3D""><br style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px" =
class=3D"">We can take this to bitcoin-discuss, if we're getting too far =
off topic.</span><br style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px" =
class=3D""><br style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px" =
class=3D""><br style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px" =
class=3D"">On Wed, Mar 29, 2017 at 11:25 AM David Vorick <</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:david.vorick@gmail.com" =
style=3D"text-decoration:none;color:rgb(66,133,244);font-family:sans-serif=
;font-size:13.696px" class=3D"">david.vorick@gmail.com</a><span =
style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px" =
class=3D"">></span><br =
style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px" =
class=3D"">wrote:</span><br =
style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px" class=3D""><br =
style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px" =
class=3D"">></span><br =
style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px" class=3D"">> On =
Mar 29, 2017 12:20 PM, "Andrew Johnson" <</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:andrew.johnson83@gmail.com" =
style=3D"text-decoration:none;color:rgb(66,133,244);font-family:sans-serif=
;font-size:13.696px" class=3D"">andrew.johnson83@gmail.com</a><span =
style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px" =
class=3D"">></span><br =
style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px" class=3D"">> =
wrote:</span><br style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px" =
class=3D"">></span><br =
style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px" class=3D"">> =
What's stopping these users from running a pruned node? Not every =
node</span><br style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px" =
class=3D"">> needs to store a complete copy of the =
blockchain.</span><br style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px" =
class=3D"">></span><br =
style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px" =
class=3D"">></span><br =
style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px" class=3D"">> =
Pruned nodes are not the default configuration, if it was the =
default</span><br style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px" =
class=3D"">> configuration then I think you would see far more users =
running a pruned</span><br =
style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px" class=3D"">> =
node.</span><br style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px" =
class=3D"">></span><br =
style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px" class=3D"">> But =
that would also substantially increase the burden on archive =
nodes.</span><br style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px" =
class=3D"">></span><br =
style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px" =
class=3D"">></span><br =
style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px" class=3D"">> =
Further discussion about disk space requirements should be taken =
to</span><br style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px" =
class=3D"">> another thread.</span><br =
style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px" =
class=3D"">></span><br =
style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px" =
class=3D"">></span><br =
style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px" class=3D"">> =
--</span><br style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px" =
class=3D"">Andrew Johnson</span><br =
style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px" =
class=3D"">-------------- next part --------------</span><br =
style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px" class=3D"">An HTML =
attachment was scrubbed...</span><br =
style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px" class=3D"">URL: =
<</span><a =
href=3D"http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/attachments=
/20170329/9b48ebe3/attachment.html" =
style=3D"text-decoration:none;color:rgb(66,133,244);font-family:sans-serif=
;font-size:13.696px" class=3D"">http://lists.linuxfoundation.<wbr =
class=3D"">org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/<wbr =
class=3D"">attachments/20170329/9b48ebe3/<wbr =
class=3D"">attachment.html</a><span =
style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px" =
class=3D"">></span><br =
style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px" class=3D""><br =
style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px" =
class=3D"">------------------------------</span><br =
style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px" =
class=3D""></div></div>
_______________________________________________<br class=3D"">bitcoin-dev =
mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" =
class=3D"">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a><br =
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br class=3D""></div></blockquote></div><br =
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