summaryrefslogtreecommitdiff
path: root/76/c27f3f00fa1e02b576e81ddc83fe826bcdf526
blob: d720549e9332bed7f9f85fdd5fc4c7a000b0ac10 (plain)
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
30
31
32
33
34
35
36
37
38
39
40
41
42
43
44
45
46
47
48
49
50
51
52
53
54
55
56
57
58
59
60
61
62
63
64
65
66
67
68
69
70
71
72
73
74
75
76
77
78
79
80
81
82
83
84
85
86
87
88
89
90
91
92
93
94
95
96
97
98
99
100
101
102
103
104
105
106
107
108
109
110
111
112
113
114
115
116
117
118
119
120
121
122
123
124
125
126
127
128
129
130
131
132
133
134
135
136
137
138
139
140
141
142
143
144
145
146
147
148
149
150
151
152
153
154
155
156
157
158
159
160
161
162
163
164
165
166
167
168
169
170
171
172
173
174
175
176
177
178
179
180
181
182
183
184
185
186
187
188
189
190
191
192
193
194
195
196
197
198
199
200
201
202
203
204
205
206
207
208
209
210
211
212
213
214
215
216
217
218
219
220
221
222
223
224
225
226
227
228
229
230
231
232
233
234
235
236
237
238
239
240
241
242
243
244
245
246
247
248
249
250
251
252
253
254
255
256
257
258
259
260
261
262
263
264
265
266
267
268
269
270
271
272
273
274
275
276
277
278
279
280
281
282
283
284
285
286
287
288
289
290
291
292
293
294
295
296
297
298
299
300
301
302
303
304
305
306
307
308
309
310
311
312
313
314
315
316
317
318
319
320
321
322
323
324
325
326
327
328
329
330
331
332
333
334
335
336
337
338
339
340
341
342
343
344
345
346
347
348
349
350
351
352
353
354
355
356
357
358
359
360
361
362
363
364
365
366
367
368
369
370
371
372
373
374
375
376
377
378
379
380
381
382
383
384
385
386
387
388
389
390
391
392
393
394
395
396
397
Delivery-date: Mon, 16 Jun 2025 09:56:43 -0700
Received: from mail-oo1-f56.google.com ([209.85.161.56])
	by mail.fairlystable.org with esmtps  (TLS1.3) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256
	(Exim 4.94.2)
	(envelope-from <bitcoindev+bncBDOYBLGOTUDRBQMZYHBAMGQEZPU2PZA@googlegroups.com>)
	id 1uRD8U-0008PB-K0
	for bitcoindev@gnusha.org; Mon, 16 Jun 2025 09:56:43 -0700
Received: by mail-oo1-f56.google.com with SMTP id 006d021491bc7-60f48d860e6sf5106482eaf.1
        for <bitcoindev@gnusha.org>; Mon, 16 Jun 2025 09:56:42 -0700 (PDT)
ARC-Seal: i=2; a=rsa-sha256; t=1750092997; cv=pass;
        d=google.com; s=arc-20240605;
        b=H2AKULWkAscBnTtPpNiLa2hwf3TQHB0xOCQppwWprWpFymPpMOxqz4rbaUr3aup19G
         T05A0Xx5AI9n1iMxbYKEwVr66Uo4Pkrs2lyC7IkfHZ5AsT5njNetmty6PxcfWlKT3QD5
         sWvm1Ze/PBYBo6RC8GEOYmQ8fs6AszOnH9zfw1lbJp4/j4YD111yl14/qvFUBKj9NdAC
         H74B9UDTLNJGFR2Q017Gm9AgcOC2wNT67prdsESxwUxDpGgiPCHKxXvshM4wYu5iG6DJ
         Rrbby0kZ7+0hLbbVuZ71xQEgbMqvhHRSN+OARwZedFnAakjcnGImE+mjUzQ9KaDbnWV0
         0TFA==
ARC-Message-Signature: i=2; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=arc-20240605;
        h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post
         :list-id:mailing-list:precedence:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from
         :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:sender:dkim-signature
         :dkim-signature;
        bh=bP6tesZisWWWmpFjwIpQKu0IFO9VHS5xrUGsGMmRT+g=;
        fh=ZhIzdjKrCqJXxBYCyXykr91C14cdljlbmqqvgPDw1Xw=;
        b=BWiuHxBsfd0AufTlgFyYB0qM8ToLSudxhy2+1wmfQ1tIBsdExBt+4tyyVPxFHf84we
         YA2ApMo9caxiJLhK4tHQ0Q6xZiMl3fGAwq49k4mLeISZMpHsBhe14VxQ4T2zXzpJuKSu
         7w7gdUbcbf2su2u0jjauckbdcu2sPuXHWCa6skA32a/8kTXT2ZJVJtAPIPXWkQcGmAP+
         5JJXj2LGwZ7TuNgvdDIdV2SnJjkqdVu4ap+MMis+5xhsQWxiURAtceLc0tJo13lxABSe
         ii/7/dWRBfVNrZmonxUxfagMFqDXFALUFcHhhGqkFb4qOQj9bLeTiZx2pbc5X+0woklG
         ulIw==;
        darn=gnusha.org
ARC-Authentication-Results: i=2; gmr-mx.google.com;
       dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com header.s=20230601 header.b=W72iB1Tv;
       spf=pass (google.com: domain of kanzure@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::631 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=kanzure@gmail.com;
       dmarc=pass (p=NONE sp=QUARANTINE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com;
       dara=pass header.i=@googlegroups.com
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=googlegroups.com; s=20230601; t=1750092997; x=1750697797; darn=gnusha.org;
        h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post
         :list-id:mailing-list:precedence:x-original-authentication-results
         :x-original-sender:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to
         :references:mime-version:sender:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id
         :reply-to;
        bh=bP6tesZisWWWmpFjwIpQKu0IFO9VHS5xrUGsGMmRT+g=;
        b=iaBLvJPhj1xNQFxjztjIzhFTti/gyf1kjYmtkjAcafTBmOb7IBMwk+VEUcIiC+FTmH
         2ZqOgea3UIraPQRBZ0LmP30SPjrfmNDdPn69Sc8DiT9+YkuuEP0MrvXB1iaFlwQNVoGy
         myrL8CzAkCoVAkVtqksYb6Zz+ibDz/bpHT5JPjKdJrr/hS5V5SUVyg8ko+2Isc83JatB
         E7Qzuve7dYhF7ap/ydwTCjPeLltUXlGA6lXdfETseVGsxH2tn2TUjn/D/gjPM+j1S7kd
         5Pg8nAk+Y3mZV0x14pYWK+jKcKtwxB/Ega6/CCjxgqFkinLtWYPAIzM4zIQleMLd5dC4
         /U6A==
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1750092997; x=1750697797; darn=gnusha.org;
        h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post
         :list-id:mailing-list:precedence:x-original-authentication-results
         :x-original-sender:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to
         :references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to;
        bh=bP6tesZisWWWmpFjwIpQKu0IFO9VHS5xrUGsGMmRT+g=;
        b=lUrJ5S0fWzqe7aHsGbHn/f9GdKsQIDYJg/fEZHctUelmQQPifH/jXVcruMyFL+agLU
         CCS4Z/LMH+rc9mBuyzQ5+FKOPvpUuTtY9ePLH/Ig1v/fqxE2aAh/6AbD9f6HhZQPcahw
         ti2Vp+ye17Ky9DUHgAne38gSuP4ugOSXCRKyPqvr0qBz/rLahrXY3kmdAm6ImmeZfUkM
         FbwQdDM7CfR5N6qjzJ4B1yb4QfsUYZvjIcWTyLGBgnQPHJJvUNlBrNUf5XoKzxAKFZVX
         oJVCT5M2rmu7KdNqHMxispwNFf8TTeuukbjsf0Ko2EIIEhCQPaiSDJHaHVDe+ro7fMzz
         /mfQ==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1750092997; x=1750697797;
        h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post
         :list-id:mailing-list:precedence:x-original-authentication-results
         :x-original-sender:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to
         :references:mime-version:x-beenthere:x-gm-message-state:sender:from
         :to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to;
        bh=bP6tesZisWWWmpFjwIpQKu0IFO9VHS5xrUGsGMmRT+g=;
        b=sLU4IXM9CKWlQnwsXUqaHofzotviIY1O1oczqd0g+AOMYpTTKnoKEB65cvi17rJqe4
         OSdND1IM+6QWPcjbCfX6BVzJN8n0n48Ern1zCvIkAyJEjvcN+rIIrRNEZKuJRxDFSEqk
         RjHLoCuiCKKLgKc+wlDi5HBA816XABUL/t4KHJf46db3mpajq8s+Rhee3ohuUPa4t8cB
         eYekthVuvuOIFkBK5b9c9OiT1g2hMyOLJmRTCDLLWIc+xZtPu7AOZyQZ9ixAyk8EYhCF
         rpBIp6rmhwZmKmXcO5E5tIztU8JBsgUKZmo5pLCoFmuFVL7/QLdHis1kTaG9BX9pAppx
         0ZiA==
Sender: bitcoindev@googlegroups.com
X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=2; AJvYcCVNORVz33yLEiAJVjxw6VmKlf/dPuvM6EvkFN52B1kyd5Lc4SOYGoFPlIyntSLiHQdRoVMr2dpENfej@gnusha.org
X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YwsDWO2S0DRzHXO/qs96jxv28aQ/zSWTZmDnGRfeLE+9+PrCAJ7
	rEjwXm5O4sv1Zbar8uJe1rbdj0RWwJjYcR9PRqOT4qoX6lQU2S+VzK67
X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IG0JgGLeG9IjCUdsfsMtnkEtGJTCDg11WtYbJtquwzZQwzA6CzRS1fBayhn1NY1j33Cc3bL3A==
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6870:374b:b0:2c2:3e24:9b54 with SMTP id 586e51a60fabf-2eaf08766cdmr5511648fac.11.1750092996463;
        Mon, 16 Jun 2025 09:56:36 -0700 (PDT)
X-BeenThere: bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; h=AZMbMZeAp1kfC7qoVz22ie2nm0C0jdMpnoW/bLO0TDQYiG4sUA==
Received: by 2002:a05:6871:68c:b0:2da:b91c:91bd with SMTP id
 586e51a60fabf-2eab6ee08a7ls5852723fac.1.-pod-prod-09-us; Mon, 16 Jun 2025
 09:56:32 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6808:1822:b0:3fe:ab15:5ed6 with SMTP id 5614622812f47-40a7c131cf1mr6078510b6e.12.1750092992807;
        Mon, 16 Jun 2025 09:56:32 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 2002:a7b:c386:0:b0:450:ce23:93de with SMTP id 5b1f17b1804b1-453345232cams5e9;
        Mon, 16 Jun 2025 09:09:18 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6000:2504:b0:3a4:e624:4ec9 with SMTP id ffacd0b85a97d-3a572384087mr8377675f8f.3.1750090155703;
        Mon, 16 Jun 2025 09:09:15 -0700 (PDT)
ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; t=1750090155; cv=none;
        d=google.com; s=arc-20240605;
        b=Vie9mEwhR04Rdeo4ISrW6l/LrWgZ4q9L2OEGifVSDzuanXg6yuKT6V/fRe+iNKojjK
         vRt1+7rmM+YnnZ9adJrnbtksq3iSqSUWxXN6PIj+5o+I0iilO8K/35kVZp5LNjKQ9kL8
         j0aax0Yp6LWF6Wa0zv3ztlO7ngsCn5ly+NiLsIT3UlDxA2rrvY4aBrP3HDaVhz5P070p
         KMor4wnTEs9cpgEewBW9q640K0Jv/+4CBN5TUw3Q+ZsGJ3zBR/gXKZVar7DTAhCJyNv7
         m4TRbUWID+vijyKFWXSn9Kp17Nh4EeRtUzV56Sm5eQUUu3SfHFQRdT9FOAGRvaeUB4hw
         a3JQ==
ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=arc-20240605;
        h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references
         :mime-version:dkim-signature;
        bh=HZkNg3jPXExQ3h7FB1AMPG0unOueevICX2eTa7crDY8=;
        fh=ow3zOQxxfP/zU4lp+V2z6kLtGWRC+syO3sPNaPmp69I=;
        b=La1cFoVjbkPtO6n34hvQtiebUqw+Bp4sO4lMXiDh0MvXNCDsT43ZmuAyZSg9Su8T4e
         C9+rogUvF5GMVoVB5S86yyJuol2LSmrfkWPcPIez9G/6E0NmLRcoK2UVqwK8DsQ3oTIY
         09CA20fM1WhCfbSWix3vQ5aWAguiFCDcC8DWnrNICxNH+l7YbdUYBPVewI3vSCaxM9em
         KTNyyLJRHkCAIL6e0GDjSG9OwcXfsf4QOFZ2lbV4PvUP5R2kGUrxwKODjzWzGGmCwlsv
         H6FgOxevNpOdsKB9hiBVXHU9RCEM3mbp9HIOlTsV+0SG4oyzbk4IPP7x1DSIqhCVcL5s
         jL+Q==;
        dara=google.com
ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; gmr-mx.google.com;
       dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com header.s=20230601 header.b=W72iB1Tv;
       spf=pass (google.com: domain of kanzure@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::631 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=kanzure@gmail.com;
       dmarc=pass (p=NONE sp=QUARANTINE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com;
       dara=pass header.i=@googlegroups.com
Received: from mail-ej1-x631.google.com (mail-ej1-x631.google.com. [2a00:1450:4864:20::631])
        by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id ffacd0b85a97d-3a568acfa9asi162443f8f.3.2025.06.16.09.09.15
        for <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>
        (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128);
        Mon, 16 Jun 2025 09:09:15 -0700 (PDT)
Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of kanzure@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::631 as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::631;
Received: by mail-ej1-x631.google.com with SMTP id a640c23a62f3a-adf34d5e698so583964766b.1
        for <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>; Mon, 16 Jun 2025 09:09:15 -0700 (PDT)
X-Gm-Gg: ASbGnctatnrs/mz13P5SIsPLfdGB+hLSKKyzlXbCHN6Xtt0+RurKEU+IazyekIq9ex/
	VtqcgLUn/iy28mflhOfi9YlL6hdmYbqnQDth/h4Mkv0Vvtnnsd1WkpXMiJTkAUqjvUrD6qhfEtR
	OOBVILKbhYWazSsV1nEggq/S26hvUinSnjOzn8Rmu1bvey35QS0tIB9VNQV/iQ6Co+geuHBQ2E7
	nHk
X-Received: by 2002:a17:907:9484:b0:ade:328a:95d2 with SMTP id
 a640c23a62f3a-adf9a2801cdmr1072037866b.0.1750090155020; Mon, 16 Jun 2025
 09:09:15 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <CABaSBax-meEsC2013zKYJnC3phFFB_W3cHQLroUJcPDZKsjB8w@mail.gmail.com>
 <aE7xTUoUrPkNtDql@mail.wpsoftware.net> <4ad72033-dac1-4a4d-a432-1cc525f92e6dn@googlegroups.com>
In-Reply-To: <4ad72033-dac1-4a4d-a432-1cc525f92e6dn@googlegroups.com>
From: Bryan Bishop <kanzure@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2025 11:09:02 -0500
X-Gm-Features: AX0GCFuwIQ5qT__kEKbLGaZRlyP4qrdZQWukBgnQA6goCI6axhF1LVG99kE-h6s
Message-ID: <CABaSBaw1u-9UptejUNwObYkk3POLF5LZ6UJqX14RzYyezvWFJQ@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] The case for privatizing Bitcoin Core
To: "waxwing/ AdamISZ" <ekaggata@gmail.com>
Cc: Bitcoin Development Mailing List <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>, Bryan Bishop <kanzure@gmail.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000003d7490637b29e82"
X-Original-Sender: kanzure@gmail.com
X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com;       dkim=pass
 header.i=@gmail.com header.s=20230601 header.b=W72iB1Tv;       spf=pass
 (google.com: domain of kanzure@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::631 as
 permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=kanzure@gmail.com;       dmarc=pass (p=NONE
 sp=QUARANTINE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com;       dara=pass header.i=@googlegroups.com
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com
List-ID: <bitcoindev.googlegroups.com>
X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512
List-Post: <https://groups.google.com/group/bitcoindev/post>, <mailto:bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>
List-Help: <https://groups.google.com/support/>, <mailto:bitcoindev+help@googlegroups.com>
List-Archive: <https://groups.google.com/group/bitcoindev
List-Subscribe: <https://groups.google.com/group/bitcoindev/subscribe>, <mailto:bitcoindev+subscribe@googlegroups.com>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:googlegroups-manage+786775582512+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com>,
 <https://groups.google.com/group/bitcoindev/subscribe>
X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/)

--00000000000003d7490637b29e82
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi,

On Mon, Jun 16, 2025 at 10:28=E2=80=AFAM waxwing/ AdamISZ <ekaggata@gmail.c=
om>
wrote:

> My personal opinion is that the best solution is to create a very strong
> ruleset on disallowing any non-technical contribution on github, and
> applying that rule rigorously no matter whether the content *feels*
> acceptable or not, and no matter how well respected the contributor is an=
d
> might rightfully be given some slack. This would be for PRs; for Issues, =
I
> don't know how much of a similar problem you have, but templates aren't b=
ad
> I guess. Such extreme discipline is only needed in that repo, virtually n=
o
> other repo needs it.
>

Interesting idea. Worth trying. I would not be opposed to seeing this
tried. However, my intuition is that manual, vigorous disciplined
moderation like that is difficult to execute especially across many people,
compared to systems that push that discipline into automation mechanisms,
such as "must apply to post" or "first-timers have their posts moderated"
or other variations.

I think the biggest problems arise when you insist that there is *no* place
> for what you see as "brigading", "sock puppetry" etc. I have seen several
> times in the past (most notably around the blocksize wars) where many hig=
hly
>

Nobody can stop such discussion forums from being created anywhere on the
Internet. There will always be a place so long as at least one person wants
to publicly discuss an idea or concept. I recall there were various "pro
block size wars" discussion channels during that time period.


> respected engineers dismissed all opposing opinions as sock puppetry. Thi=
s
> is not realistic, nor is it healthy. If you stuff all contrary opinions
> (uneducated or not!) into a garbage bin that you label "politics" (imagin=
e
> the phrase "go
>

I have some confusion here: is this a discussion about existing public
communication channels and allowing arbitrary content posting? is it about
what an individual does and what they choose to engage with or not engage
in? Is it a condemnation of the aggregate behavior of the volunteer
developers?

1) Existing communication channels: see my previous text on compelled
platforming of speech in my original email.

2) Whether individuals choose to engage or label it "politics" or "cool
random" or "trash bin" or any other label they choose: This is entirely up
to the individual level and cannot be regulated. Nor can they be forced to
participate or discuss things they don't want to discuss or aren't
interested in. However, sometimes people for example do engage in online
arguments, against their better judgment haha.

3) Aggregate group behavior: this one is likely more of an issue of
narratives and perceptions around group behavior in aggregate. For example,
a perception that "respected engineers dismissed all opposing opinions as
sockpuppetry" in the incident you are referencing when there was, to my
recollection, extensive prolonged good faith engagement to a radical
extent. Have we such a short memory? Of course, when such engagement does
not lead to a desired outcome, it's easy to spin a narrative of
non-cooperation or non-engagement ("you didn't cause the outcome that we
demanded! if you did not come to our conclusion then you did not do any
consideration!" -- see how easy it is?).


> and discuss it on bitcoin-politics" with the tacit assumption that no one
> serious is ever going to read that dumpster fire), it invites the exact
> conflict you're trying to avoid. I suggest "bitcoin policy" as a general
> title for such things,
>

I don't see my original goal as "avoid conflict". It was about creating an
online space exclusively for bitcoin developers that want to work together
on bitcoin development. I posit that even with such an exclusive space, and
even if it had higher adoption than the current private development
efforts, that there would still be various online fora with various people
of all kinds (angry, confused, informed, etc), or even cool-headed
non-confused people that developers simply don't have time or interest to
individually read-- or maybe they would; who knows! But it's separate from
having a place for bitcoin development.


> If [a bitcoin-policy fora] doesn't end up being a place that serious
> people talk seriously, then of course it will have failed in the intentio=
n.
>

That... might be okay? Who's fault is that if "serious people", such as
"serious developers", don't wish to participate in those fora? Does
fault-finding even matter there? And, if there is non-participation from
"serious developers" or other "serious people", the default assumption
should not be "therefore we need to clutter up public developer
communication channels" - which in some ways seems sort of paternalistic,
on the order of "developers can't decide for themselves how to hear from
users or what to individually work on"- thankfully nobody has explicitly
asserted this, although a few replies I received on X.com seem pretty close
to it......


- Bryan
https://x.com/kanzure

--=20
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/=
CABaSBaw1u-9UptejUNwObYkk3POLF5LZ6UJqX14RzYyezvWFJQ%40mail.gmail.com.

--00000000000003d7490637b29e82
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Hi,</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote gmail_quote_co=
ntainer"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Mon, Jun 16, 2025 at 10:2=
8=E2=80=AFAM waxwing/ AdamISZ &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ekaggata@gmail.com">eka=
ggata@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" s=
tyle=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);pad=
ding-left:1ex"><div>My personal opinion is that the best solution is to cre=
ate a very strong ruleset on disallowing any non-technical contribution on =
github, and applying that rule rigorously no matter whether the content *fe=
els* acceptable or not, and no matter how well respected the contributor is=
 and might rightfully be given some slack. This would be for PRs; for Issue=
s, I don&#39;t know how much of a similar problem you have, but templates a=
ren&#39;t bad I guess. Such extreme discipline is only needed in that repo,=
 virtually no other repo needs it.</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>In=
teresting idea. Worth trying. I would not be opposed to seeing this tried. =
However, my intuition is that manual, vigorous disciplined moderation like =
that is difficult to execute especially across many people, compared to sys=
tems that push that discipline into automation mechanisms, such as &quot;mu=
st apply to post&quot; or &quot;first-timers have their posts moderated&quo=
t; or other variations.</div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quot=
e" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204)=
;padding-left:1ex"><div>I think the biggest problems arise when you insist =
that there is *no* place for what you see as &quot;brigading&quot;, &quot;s=
ock puppetry&quot; etc. I have seen several times in the past (most notably=
 around the blocksize wars) where many highly</div></blockquote><div><br></=
div><div>Nobody can stop such discussion forums from being created anywhere=
 on the Internet. There will always be a place so long as at least one pers=
on wants to publicly discuss an idea or concept. I recall there were variou=
s &quot;pro block size wars&quot; discussion channels during that time peri=
od.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin=
:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"=
><div> respected engineers dismissed all opposing opinions as sock puppetry=
. This is not realistic, nor is it healthy. If you stuff all contrary opini=
ons (uneducated or not!) into a garbage bin that you label &quot;politics&q=
uot; (imagine the phrase &quot;go</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I h=
ave some confusion here: is this a discussion about existing public communi=
cation channels and allowing arbitrary content posting? is it about what an=
 individual does and what they choose to engage with or not engage in? Is i=
t a condemnation of the aggregate behavior of the volunteer developers?</di=
v><div><br></div><div>1) Existing communication channels: see my previous t=
ext on compelled platforming of speech in my original email.=C2=A0</div><di=
v><br></div><div>2) Whether individuals choose to engage or label it &quot;=
politics&quot; or &quot;cool random&quot; or &quot;trash bin&quot; or any o=
ther label they choose: This is entirely up to the individual level and can=
not be regulated. Nor can they be forced to participate or discuss things t=
hey don&#39;t want to discuss or aren&#39;t interested in. However, sometim=
es people for example do engage in online arguments, against their better j=
udgment haha.</div><div><br></div><div>3) Aggregate group behavior: this on=
e is likely more of an issue of narratives and perceptions around group beh=
avior in aggregate. For example, a perception that &quot;respected engineer=
s dismissed all opposing opinions as sockpuppetry&quot; in the incident you=
 are referencing when there was, to my recollection, extensive prolonged go=
od faith engagement to a radical extent. Have we such a short memory? Of co=
urse, when such engagement does not lead to a desired outcome, it&#39;s eas=
y to spin a narrative of non-cooperation or non-engagement (&quot;you didn&=
#39;t cause the outcome that we demanded! if you did not come to our conclu=
sion then you did not do any consideration!&quot; -- see how easy it is?).<=
/div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px=
 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><di=
v> and discuss it on bitcoin-politics&quot; with the tacit assumption that =
no one serious is ever going to read that dumpster fire), it invites the ex=
act conflict you&#39;re trying to avoid. I suggest &quot;bitcoin policy&quo=
t; as a general title for such things,</div></blockquote><div><br></div><di=
v>I don&#39;t see my original goal as &quot;avoid conflict&quot;. It was ab=
out creating an online space exclusively for bitcoin developers that want t=
o work together on bitcoin development. I posit that even with such an excl=
usive space, and even if it had higher adoption than the current private de=
velopment efforts, that there would still be various online fora with vario=
us people of all kinds (angry, confused, informed, etc), or even cool-heade=
d non-confused people that developers simply don&#39;t have time or interes=
t to individually read-- or maybe they would; who knows! But it&#39;s separ=
ate from having a place for bitcoin development.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blo=
ckquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left=
:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div>If [a bitcoin-policy for=
a] doesn&#39;t end up being a place that serious people talk seriously, the=
n of course it will have failed in the intention.</div></blockquote><div><b=
r></div><div>That... might be okay? Who&#39;s fault is that if &quot;seriou=
s people&quot;, such as &quot;serious developers&quot;, don&#39;t wish to p=
articipate in those fora? Does fault-finding even matter there? And, if the=
re is non-participation from &quot;serious developers&quot; or other &quot;=
serious people&quot;, the default assumption should not be &quot;therefore =
we need to clutter up public developer communication channels&quot; - which=
 in some ways seems sort of paternalistic, on the order of &quot;developers=
 can&#39;t decide for themselves how to hear from users or what to individu=
ally work on&quot;- thankfully nobody has explicitly asserted this, althoug=
h a few replies I received on X.com seem pretty close to it......</div><div=
><br></div><div><br></div></div><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_signature">=
<div dir=3D"ltr">- Bryan<br><a href=3D"https://x.com/kanzure" target=3D"_bl=
ank">https://x.com/kanzure</a></div></div></div>

<p></p>

-- <br />
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &=
quot;Bitcoin Development Mailing List&quot; group.<br />
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to <a href=3D"mailto:bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com">bitcoind=
ev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com</a>.<br />
To view this discussion visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/=
bitcoindev/CABaSBaw1u-9UptejUNwObYkk3POLF5LZ6UJqX14RzYyezvWFJQ%40mail.gmail=
.com?utm_medium=3Demail&utm_source=3Dfooter">https://groups.google.com/d/ms=
gid/bitcoindev/CABaSBaw1u-9UptejUNwObYkk3POLF5LZ6UJqX14RzYyezvWFJQ%40mail.g=
mail.com</a>.<br />

--00000000000003d7490637b29e82--