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From: Alan Evans <thealanevans@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2018 15:50:24 -0400
Message-ID: <CALPhJaxVOyxjXQUj5oMrrsXH94H4Qkw7GL24TCoZ6HoE6fa=+Q@mail.gmail.com>
To: Jonathan Sterling <jon@thancodes.com>, 
	Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
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Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Suggestion to remove word from BIP39 English
	wordlist
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> so it=E2=80=99s less obvious that it=E2=80=99s a bitcoin seed when found =
by a malicious
third party
1. The same words are used for wallets of all kinds of coins, so it's not
obvious it's for bitcoin.

2. Anyone recognising the word "satoshi" as related to cryptocurrency in
general, would also recognise any mnemonic.

3. You could elect to skip a mnemonic that includes the word if it was a
personal concern (but I would discourage selecting a mnemonic base on
personal preference, as could get dangerously close to being a brain wallet
in effect).

4. You could choose to record just the first 4 characters of each word,
"sato" is enough.

5. Where do we stop? the words "coin", "cash", "rich" are in there too.

6. About automated data-recovery, if you are storing mnemonics on HDDs or
other digial media, then you have larger security concerns than it just
being found during HDD recycling.

But most of all:

7. Removing a word or changing a list *is impossible* as verification of an
existing mnemonic requires the list. To change one word, you would need to
provide an alternative to BIP0039 to cope with alternative words, or change
all the words to a completely new set of 2048 English words so that it is
clear which wordlist is in use.

Regards,

Alan

On Thu, Jan 18, 2018 at 2:55 AM, Jonathan Sterling via bitcoin-dev <
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:

> All the more reason to only use the most common words that meet the other
> criteria:  https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-
> 0039.mediawiki#Wordlist
>
> I agree - keeping "satoshi" in there is an unnecessary security risk.
>
> Kind Regards,
>
> Jonathan Sterling
>
> On Thu, Jan 18, 2018 at 8:14 AM, CryptAxe via bitcoin-dev <
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>
>> Why wouldn't they just test the frequency of words from the wordlist in
>> entirety?
>>
>> On Jan 17, 2018 5:10 PM, "Weiwu Zhang via bitcoin-dev" <
>> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>>
>>> 2018-01-09 19:20 GMT+08:00 Ronald van der Meer via bitcoin-dev
>>> <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>:
>>> > After reviewing some bitcoin improvement proposals, I noticed that on=
e
>>> of the words that can be found on the BIP39 English wordlist is =E2=80=
=9Csatoshi=E2=80=9D.
>>> > I suggest removing this word from the list so it=E2=80=99s less obvio=
us that
>>> it=E2=80=99s a bitcoin seed when found by a malicious third party.
>>>
>>> If a malicious third party discovers a word list that look like a
>>> seed, they would try using it as Bitcoin seed first anyway, with or
>>> without finding the word 'satoshi' in it. The security threat is that
>>> a malicious third party may index what they found and test every
>>> occurrence of 'satoshi' for a lead to a seed.
>>>
>>> For example, a hard-disk recycling service would add this word to
>>> their salvage tools. Any successfully hacked gmail account will be
>>> 'satoshi' tested too.
>>>
>>> So I see this as a reasonable improvement:)
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> bitcoin-dev mailing list
>>> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
>>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> bitcoin-dev mailing list
>> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Kind Regards,
>
> Jonathan Sterling
> +44 (0)7415 512691 <+44%207415%20512691>
>
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(80,0,80);font-size:12.8px">&=
gt;=C2=A0</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(80,0,80);font-size:12.8px">so it=
=E2=80=99s less obvious that it=E2=80=99s a bitcoin seed when found by a ma=
licious third party</span></div><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px">1. The sam=
e words are used for wallets of all kinds of coins, so it&#39;s not obvious=
 it&#39;s for bitcoin.</span><div style=3D"font-size:12.8px"><br></div><div=
 style=3D"font-size:12.8px">2. Anyone recognising the word &quot;satoshi&qu=
ot; as related to cryptocurrency in general, would also recognise any mnemo=
nic.</div><div style=3D"font-size:12.8px"><br></div><div style=3D"font-size=
:12.8px">3. You could elect to skip a mnemonic that includes the word if it=
 was a personal concern (but I would discourage=C2=A0selecting a mnemonic b=
ase on personal preference, as could get=C2=A0dangerously close to being a=
=C2=A0brain wallet in effect).</div><div style=3D"font-size:12.8px"><br></d=
iv><div style=3D"font-size:12.8px">4. You could choose to record just the f=
irst 4 characters of each word, &quot;sato&quot; is enough.</div><div style=
=3D"font-size:12.8px"><br></div><div style=3D"font-size:12.8px"><span style=
=3D"font-size:12.8px">5. Where do we stop?=C2=A0the words &quot;coin&quot;,=
 &quot;cash&quot;, &quot;rich&quot; are in there too.</span><br></div><div =
style=3D"font-size:12.8px"><br></div><div style=3D"font-size:12.8px">6. Abo=
ut automated data-recovery, if you are storing=C2=A0mnemonics on HDDs or ot=
her digial=C2=A0media, then you have larger security concerns than it just =
being found during HDD recycling.</div><div style=3D"font-size:12.8px"><br>=
</div><div style=3D"font-size:12.8px">But most of all:</div><div style=3D"f=
ont-size:12.8px"><br></div><div style=3D"font-size:12.8px"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:12.8px">7. Removing a word or changing a list <b>is impossible</b>=
 as verification of an existing mnemonic requires the list. To change one w=
ord, you would need to provide an=C2=A0alternative to BIP0039 to cope with =
alternative words, or change all the words to a completely new set of 2048 =
English words so that it is clear which wordlist is in use.</span></div><di=
v style=3D"font-size:12.8px"><br></div><div style=3D"font-size:12.8px">Rega=
rds,</div><div style=3D"font-size:12.8px"><br></div><div style=3D"font-size=
:12.8px">Alan</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail=
_quote">On Thu, Jan 18, 2018 at 2:55 AM, Jonathan Sterling via bitcoin-dev =
<span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.o=
rg" target=3D"_blank">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>&gt;</span> =
wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bord=
er-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">All the more reas=
on to only use the most common words that meet the other criteria:=C2=A0=C2=
=A0<a href=3D"https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0039.mediawik=
i#Wordlist" target=3D"_blank">https://github.com/<wbr>bitcoin/bips/blob/mas=
ter/bip-<wbr>0039.mediawiki#Wordlist</a>=C2=A0<div><br></div><div>I agree -=
 keeping &quot;satoshi&quot; in there is an unnecessary security risk.<br><=
div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">Kind Regards=
,</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">Jona=
than Sterling</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div><div class=3D"h5"><br><d=
iv class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Jan 18, 2018 at 8:14 AM, CryptAxe via bitc=
oin-dev <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoun=
dation.org" target=3D"_blank">bitcoin-dev@lists.<wbr>linuxfoundation.org</a=
>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 =
0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto">Why=
 wouldn&#39;t they just test the frequency of words from the wordlist in en=
tirety?</div><div class=3D"m_1540042766686543635HOEnZb"><div class=3D"m_154=
0042766686543635h5"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quot=
e">On Jan 17, 2018 5:10 PM, &quot;Weiwu Zhang via bitcoin-dev&quot; &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank">bit=
coin-dev@lists.linuxfounda<wbr>tion.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br type=3D"attributi=
on"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-lef=
t:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">2018-01-09 19:20 GMT+08:00 Ronald van de=
r Meer via bitcoin-dev<br>
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_bla=
nk">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfounda<wbr>tion.org</a>&gt;:<br>
&gt; After reviewing some bitcoin improvement proposals, I noticed that one=
 of the words that can be found on the BIP39 English wordlist is =E2=80=9Cs=
atoshi=E2=80=9D.<br>
&gt; I suggest removing this word from the list so it=E2=80=99s less obviou=
s that it=E2=80=99s a bitcoin seed when found by a malicious third party.<b=
r>
<br>
If a malicious third party discovers a word list that look like a<br>
seed, they would try using it as Bitcoin seed first anyway, with or<br>
without finding the word &#39;satoshi&#39; in it. The security threat is th=
at<br>
a malicious third party may index what they found and test every<br>
occurrence of &#39;satoshi&#39; for a lead to a seed.<br>
<br>
For example, a hard-disk recycling service would add this word to<br>
their salvage tools. Any successfully hacked gmail account will be<br>
&#39;satoshi&#39; tested too.<br>
<br>
So I see this as a reasonable improvement:)<br>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
bitcoin-dev mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank">=
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundat<wbr>ion.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev" =
rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.linuxfoundation.<wbr>org=
/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-d<wbr>ev</a><br>
</blockquote></div></div>
</div></div><br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
bitcoin-dev mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank">=
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundat<wbr>ion.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev" =
rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.linuxfoundation.<wbr>org=
/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-d<wbr>ev</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div></div></div><sp=
an class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888">-- <br><div class=3D"m_15400427=
66686543635gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"=
ltr">Kind Regards,<div><br></div><div>Jonathan Sterling</div><div><a href=
=3D"tel:+44%207415%20512691" value=3D"+447415512691" target=3D"_blank">+44 =
(0)7415 512691</a></div></div></div>
</font></span></div></div></div>
<br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
bitcoin-dev mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org">bitcoin-dev@lists.=
<wbr>linuxfoundation.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev" =
rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.linuxfoundation.<wbr>org=
/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-<wbr>dev</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div>

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