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Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2025 14:33:53 +0000
To: Jonathan Voss <k98kurz@gmail.com>
From: "'conduition' via Bitcoin Development Mailing List" <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>
Cc: Bitcoin Development Mailing List <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] Post-Quantum commit / reveal Fawkescoin variant as a
soft fork
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Hi Jonathan,
I feel you're making a bigger deal of this than it needs to be.
We're talking about a way for laggards to rescue money locked in
quantum-vulnerable hashed addresses. I don't think anyone wants
a commit/reveal protocol to become the sole primary method of
transferring BTC.
We're more or less designing a system for a wallet which wakes up
after a years-long coma to find quantum computers are a threat.
This wallet can make a single "commitment transaction" followed
by a single "reveal transaction", and this dance moves all of
the funds in the wallet to a new (yet to be defined)
quantum-resistant script. After that, sending Bitcoin should work
mostly as normal.
Even if you're still hard-line opposed to the idea of
requiring a post-quantum UTXO to recover pre-quantum UTXOs,
it's still completely possible to use commit/reveal protocols
without out-of-band purchase of new BTC: You can simply spend
a very small=C2=A0pre-quantum UTXO to create the commitment. A UTXO
worth only a few thousand sats, for instance. This would be
uneconomical for the quantum attacker to double spend, and
so you'd most likely get your commitment mined safely without
buying new BTC. The only situation in which this is not possible
would be for a party with only very high-value pre-quantum UTXOs,
and no small UTXOs. These parties would need to buy a new (small)
UTXO out-of-band.
regards,
conduition
On Wednesday, June 4th, 2025 at 2:56 AM, Jonathan Voss <k98kurz@gmail.com> =
wrote:
> If using a monetary network requires out-of-band payments, then that seve=
rely limits the actual utility of the monetary network as a medium of excha=
nge. Imagine if the only way to make a bank transfer was to first go in-per=
son to the bank of the recipient of the transfer to give them something tha=
t then allowed your bank to make the transfer -- it would be an unworkable =
monetary system. Similarly, if future Bitcoin transactions require making o=
ut-of-band payments, then it has failed as a monetary network with an endog=
enous unit of account. The whole system has to work without reliance upon e=
xogenous monetary media or mechanisms. As such, the commit-and-reveal schem=
e fails to maintain the monetary properties of the network as a whole unles=
s we assert reliance upon altruism to get the commitments into the blockcha=
in, which instead breaks the incentive-based game theoretic design. Maybe i=
t would work as a stop-gap solution in the event of the advent of a relevan=
t quantum computer, but it is certainly not a good long-term plan as curren=
tly formulated.
> Recall the original premise: "Bitcoin: A Peer-to-Peer Electronic Cash Sys=
tem". If you can't transact with it as cash, i.e. as the ultimate endogenou=
s settlement mechanism, then it is no longer Bitcoin. Requiring an exogenou=
s system fundamentally breaks the model.
>=20
> -- Jonathan
> On Monday, June 2, 2025 at 9:53:55=E2=80=AFAM UTC-4 Peter Todd wrote:
>=20
> > On Fri, May 30, 2025 at 03:00:41PM -0700, Jonathan Voss wrote:
> > > As far as I can tell, the main flaw in commit/reveal protocols is in =
the
> > > commit phase: if revealing a commitment with N confirmations is requi=
red to
> > > spend bitcoins, then, without spending any bitcoins, how do you get t=
he
> > > commitment into the blockchain in the first place? Maybe I am just
> > > misunderstanding this. If so, then a commit/reveal scheme may be a wo=
rkable
> > > solution.
> >=20
> > You can always purchase new BTC to perform the commitment.
> >=20
> > Indeed, this problem is often seen in alt-coins where fees must be paid=
in a
> > native asset, while users are trying to send some kind of tokenized ass=
et like
> > a USD token. You can have funds that you can't move because you don't h=
ave the
> > correct asset. While annoying, this isn't a fatal problem.
> >=20
> > --
> > https://petertodd.org 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org
>=20
> --
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