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From: Greg Maxwell <gmaxwell@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2025 21:31:03 +0000
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Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] CTV + CSFS: a letter
To: Jameson Lopp <jameson.lopp@gmail.com>
Cc: Antoine Poinsot <darosior@protonmail.com>, Matt Corallo <lf-lists@mattcorallo.com>, 
	Andrew Poelstra <apoelstra@wpsoftware.net>, 
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On Sat, Jun 14, 2025 at 8:17=E2=80=AFPM Jameson Lopp <jameson.lopp@gmail.co=
m> wrote:

> Sure. As I mentioned in my article years ago, one can technically
> implement covenant functionality today via presigned transactions and
> ephemeral key material. But there is a vast gap between what is technical=
ly
> possible and what is practical, which is why I believe you can't find any
> such software in existence. Using presigned transactions means you have t=
o
> regularly update your vault scheme whenever your UTXOs change. This becom=
es
> incredibly problematic if we're talking about a multisignature setup with
> geographically distributed keys. And ephemeral keys relies upon user bein=
g
> able to securely delete key material, which comes with its own host of
> problems.
>

What's the problem for securely deleting?  The operation is atomic-- e.g.
software can be written that performs it as a single step and never even
hands the users the private key.  If you need to attest to a third party
the ephemeral key can have 1-N multisigners, which has none of the normal
challenges for multisigning since they don't need to retain information or
check anything (in fact, it could even be blinded).

From a durability perspective you also have the same issue of maintaining a
script, if you're avoiding that by always constructing it programmatically
and backing up the scheme, you can more or less do that with the presigned
approach: just stick the ephemeral signature in a taproot annex in the
transaction paying the coins to the 'vault' script and then immediately all
the participants have the required data to deterministically construct the
intermediate transaction.

The result is essentially identical properties to a 'vault' constructed
with CTV and needs no consensus change.

As I see it, a setup where you presign a transaction to sweep funds to an
> emergency address is only particularly useful for the situation in which
> key material becomes inaccessible. It doesn't really help you in the case
> where key material is compromised. Vaults specifically allow for a user t=
o
> recover from a situation in which a signing threshold of keys have been
> compromised.
>

But that is the only kind of vault you can construct from CTV isn't it?
One where the stationary output can go to one of multiple preconstructed
outputs, typically one 'immediately' and the other after a delay that
starts when a particular transaction is released.  AFAICT, the CTV approach
does not allow you to stage an output address and then either abort or
allow it to continue.

(though I remain dubious as to the utility of that improvement, since if
you can secure the rescue/abort key you could use the process for the
primary. ... and because of the lack of implementation of these tools in
systems where its already easy to do so...)

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Sat, Jun 14, 2025 at 8:17=E2=80=AFPM J=
ameson Lopp &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jameson.lopp@gmail.com">jameson.lopp@gmai=
l.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><div class=3D"gmail_quote gmail_quote_container">=
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote"><div>Sure. As I mentioned in my article years ago, one c=
an technically implement covenant functionality today via presigned transac=
tions and ephemeral key material. But there is a vast gap between what is t=
echnically possible and what is practical,=C2=A0which is why I believe you =
can&#39;t find any such software in existence. Using presigned=C2=A0transac=
tions means you have to regularly update your vault scheme whenever your UT=
XOs change. This becomes incredibly problematic if we&#39;re talking about =
a multisignature setup with geographically distributed keys. And ephemeral =
keys relies upon user being able to securely delete key material, which com=
es with its own host of problems.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></=
div><div>What&#39;s the problem for securely deleting?=C2=A0 The operation =
is atomic-- e.g. software can be written that performs it as a single step =
and never even hands the users the private key.=C2=A0 If you need to attest=
 to a third party the ephemeral key can have 1-N multisigners, which has no=
ne of the normal challenges for multisigning=C2=A0since they don&#39;t need=
 to retain information or check anything (in fact, it could even be blinded=
).</div><div><br></div><div>From a durability perspective you also have the=
 same issue of maintaining a script, if you&#39;re avoiding that by always =
constructing it programmatically and backing up the scheme, you can more or=
 less do that with the presigned approach: just stick the ephemeral signatu=
re in a taproot annex in the transaction paying the coins to the &#39;vault=
&#39; script and then immediately all the participants have the required da=
ta to deterministically=C2=A0construct the intermediate transaction.</div><=
div><br></div><div>The result is essentially identical properties to a &#39=
;vault&#39; constructed with CTV and needs no consensus change.</div><br><b=
lockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-le=
ft:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=
=3D"gmail_quote"><div>As I see it, a setup where you presign=C2=A0a transac=
tion to sweep funds to an emergency address is only particularly useful for=
 the situation in which key material becomes inaccessible. It doesn&#39;t r=
eally help you in the case where key material is compromised. Vaults specif=
ically allow for a user to recover from a situation in which a signing thre=
shold of keys have been compromised.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br=
></div><div>But that is the only kind of vault you can construct from CTV i=
sn&#39;t it?=C2=A0 One where the stationary output can go to one of multipl=
e preconstructed outputs, typically one &#39;immediately&#39; and the other=
 after a delay that starts when a particular transaction is released.=C2=A0=
 AFAICT, the CTV approach does not allow you to stage an output address and=
 then either abort or allow it to continue.</div><div><br></div><div>(thoug=
h I remain dubious as to the utility of that improvement, since if you can =
secure the rescue/abort key you could use the process for the primary. ... =
and because of the lack of implementation of these tools in systems where i=
ts already easy to do so...)</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0=
</div></div></div>

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