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From: Saint Wenhao <saintwenhao@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 2 May 2025 15:58:02 +0200
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Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] Re: Introducing Hourglass
To: Agustin Cruz <agustin.cruz@gmail.com>
Cc: Nagaev Boris <bnagaev@gmail.com>, Michael Tidwell <michael@tidwell.io>, 
	Bitcoin Development Mailing List <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>
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> coins that don=E2=80=99t make the jump are effectively burned or otherwis=
e
invalidated by consensus, so there=E2=80=99s nothing left for an attacker t=
o sign

If you require the classical ECDSA signature, and a quantum-resistant one,
then it will make coins "trapped", instead of "burned". And I think it is
better, because then, if some quantum-resistant algorithm will be broken
for any reason (some of them were broken classically), then it will be
possible to go back to ECDSA, and soft-fork-out of the upgraded version by
doing a downgrade, and switching to a different quantum-resistant scheme.

Also, as long as ECDSA is not fully broken, the implementation of all of
that will still be needed, to validate all historical blocks.

And of course in some cases, it may be still possible to prove, that you
are the original owner of the coin, for example if some key is a part of
some HD wallet. By making funds unspendable, instead of trapped, you break
all ways of accepting such proofs in the future.

pt., 2 maj 2025 o 13:06 Agustin Cruz <agustin.cruz@gmail.com> napisa=C5=82(=
a):

> Hi everyone,
> Boris=E2=80=99 point about a quantum capable attacker simply broadcasting=
 and self
> mining at the same time is exactly the scenario that pushed me toward the
> QRAMP idea in the first place. Rather than trying to chase a well funded
> adversary around the mempool, QRAMP proposal says: let=E2=80=99s set a fi=
rm
> deadline and make every unspent P2PK output move to a quantum safe addres=
s
> before it arrives. Once the block height or a date passes, anything that
> stayed behind just stops being spendable. Holders who migrate on time kee=
p
> full control; coins that don=E2=80=99t make the jump are effectively burn=
ed or
> otherwise invalidated by consensus, so there=E2=80=99s nothing left for a=
n attacker
> to sign.
>
> Regards,
> Agust=C3=ADn
>
> On Thu, May 1, 2025 at 2:07=E2=80=AFPM Nagaev Boris <bnagaev@gmail.com> w=
rote:
>
>> On Wed, Apr 30, 2025 at 12:26=E2=80=AFAM Michael Tidwell <michael@tidwel=
l.io>
>> wrote:
>> > - 2. Single Entity rush spends:
>> > A single entity generates QC signatures and tries to rapidly flip the
>> UTXOs while having their first mover competitive edge. They either
>> broadcast to the mempool, partner with miners, or mine directly. This
>> creates potential miner collusion if P2PK fees remain low, pressuring th=
e
>> QC entity to raise fees and incentivize miners before their competitive
>> advantage expires and others catch up.
>> >
>> [...]
>> >
>> > - 4. Patient Miner:
>> > A single QC capable entity, also operating as a miner or partners with
>> a miner, chooses to be patient, including P2PK transactions only in thei=
r
>> own blocks to maximize long-term profits.
>>
>> IMHO for a single QC capable entity even if it mines itself or
>> partners with a miner, it would make sense to broadcast the
>> transaction publicly. If it doesn't broadcast, then it can only
>> capture one UTXO when it mines a block - rarely, depending on their
>> hashrate share. If it mines itself and broadcasts at the same time,
>> there is a possibility that another miner includes the transaction
>> into a block. So a rational QC capable entity would broadcast in
>> addition to mine themselves.
>>
>> Also it would make sense to use different UTXOs for broadcasting and
>> for self mining: if another miner mines one UTXO, the QC entity can
>> continue mining another UTXO trying to mine the next block with it. If
>> they use the same UTXO, they would have to quickly make a signature
>> for a fresh UTXO for their own block. Or just have a pool of attacked
>> UTXOs and take them one by one...
>>
>> --
>> Best regards,
>> Boris Nagaev
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group=
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>> "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group.
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Gn0PpkZzLeYeGNE1tYbUzyOA%40mail.gmail.com
>> .
>>
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<div dir=3D"ltr">&gt; coins that don=E2=80=99t make the jump are effectivel=
y burned or otherwise invalidated by consensus, so there=E2=80=99s nothing =
left for an attacker to sign<br><br>If you require the classical ECDSA sign=
ature, and a quantum-resistant one, then it will make coins &quot;trapped&q=
uot;, instead of &quot;burned&quot;. And I think it is better, because then=
, if some quantum-resistant algorithm will be broken for any reason (some o=
f them were broken classically), then it will be possible to go back to ECD=
SA, and soft-fork-out of the upgraded version by doing a downgrade, and swi=
tching to a different quantum-resistant scheme.<br><br>Also, as long as ECD=
SA is not fully broken, the implementation of all of that will still be nee=
ded, to validate all historical blocks.<br><br>And of course in some cases,=
 it may be still possible to prove, that you are the original owner of the =
coin, for example if some key is a part of some HD wallet. By making funds =
unspendable, instead of trapped, you break all ways of accepting such proof=
s in the future.</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote gmail_quote_container">=
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">pt., 2 maj 2025 o 13:06=C2=A0Agustin =
Cruz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:agustin.cruz@gmail.com">agustin.cruz@gmail.com</=
a>&gt; napisa=C5=82(a):<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D=
"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-le=
ft:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi everyone,<br>Boris=E2=80=99 po=
int about a quantum capable attacker simply broadcasting and self mining at=
 the same time is exactly the scenario that pushed me toward the QRAMP idea=
 in the first place. Rather than trying to chase a well funded adversary ar=
ound the mempool, QRAMP proposal says: let=E2=80=99s set a firm deadline an=
d make every unspent P2PK output move to a quantum safe address before it a=
rrives. Once the block height or a date passes, anything that stayed behind=
 just stops being spendable. Holders who migrate on time keep full control;=
 coins that don=E2=80=99t make the jump are effectively burned or otherwise=
 invalidated by consensus, so there=E2=80=99s nothing left for an attacker =
to sign.<br><br>Regards,<br>Agust=C3=ADn</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote=
"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu, May 1, 2025 at 2:07=E2=80=
=AFPM Nagaev Boris &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bnagaev@gmail.com" target=3D"_blan=
k">bnagaev@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quo=
te" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204=
);padding-left:1ex">On Wed, Apr 30, 2025 at 12:26=E2=80=AFAM Michael Tidwel=
l &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:michael@tidwell.io" target=3D"_blank">michael@tidwe=
ll.io</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; - 2. Single Entity rush spends:<br>
&gt; A single entity generates QC signatures and tries to rapidly flip the =
UTXOs while having their first mover competitive edge. They either broadcas=
t to the mempool, partner with miners, or mine directly. This creates poten=
tial miner collusion if P2PK fees remain low, pressuring the QC entity to r=
aise fees and incentivize miners before their competitive advantage expires=
 and others catch up.<br>
&gt;<br>
[...]<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; - 4. Patient Miner:<br>
&gt; A single QC capable entity, also operating as a miner or partners with=
 a miner, chooses to be patient, including P2PK transactions only in their =
own blocks to maximize long-term profits.<br>
<br>
IMHO for a single QC capable entity even if it mines itself or<br>
partners with a miner, it would make sense to broadcast the<br>
transaction publicly. If it doesn&#39;t broadcast, then it can only<br>
capture one UTXO when it mines a block - rarely, depending on their<br>
hashrate share. If it mines itself and broadcasts at the same time,<br>
there is a possibility that another miner includes the transaction<br>
into a block. So a rational QC capable entity would broadcast in<br>
addition to mine themselves.<br>
<br>
Also it would make sense to use different UTXOs for broadcasting and<br>
for self mining: if another miner mines one UTXO, the QC entity can<br>
continue mining another UTXO trying to mine the next block with it. If<br>
they use the same UTXO, they would have to quickly make a signature<br>
for a fresh UTXO for their own block. Or just have a pool of attacked<br>
UTXOs and take them one by one...<br>
<br>
-- <br>
Best regards,<br>
Boris Nagaev<br>
<br>
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