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In-Reply-To: <228e8706-72c7-8d5f-b6fb-c71a2e56efde@peersm.com>
From: Claus Ehrenberg <aubergemediale@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2023 20:59:06 +0100
Message-ID: <CANPykMq2xCKTVPkQGoRu9iYMdARQKZQq-b5mv3X-7FHKv1FGww@mail.gmail.com>
To: Aymeric Vitte <aymeric@peersm.com>, 
 Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
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X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 17 Feb 2023 09:18:19 +0000
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Debate: 64 bytes in OP_RETURN VS taproot OP_FALSE
 OP_IF OP_PUSH
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--00000000000096aaa005f4d6a1ba
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
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I propose to require all data to be in the op_return output PLUS add a
required op_return_hash field, which is checked by consensus. So that node
can re-validate the chain without having to store/download/look at the
contents of op_return data. The benefit of that little redundancy is that
"content-sensitive" communities can ignore the date they don't like.

Cheers
Claus

On Thu, Feb 16, 2023 at 7:30 PM Aymeric Vitte via bitcoin-dev <
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:

> It's super unclear how long it could take for such a change to be adopted
>
> Then the answer is simple, see:
> https://gist.github.com/Ayms/01dbfebf219965054b4a3beed1bfeba7#workaround-=
to-the-80b-op_return-limitation
>
> Outstandingly, very, mega, bad, but working, bringing bitcoin back 10
> years ago
>
> But why not? If bitcoin folks don't get that we need a 1tx storage
> solution for the future, then let's bring back bitcoin into the past and
> destroy coins
> Le 12/02/2023 =C3=A0 17:23, Aymeric Vitte a =C3=A9crit :
>
> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/27043#issuecomment-1427069403
>
> "What is the process to have someone do the PR for this? Or I do it and
> most likely it will be a very shxtty one since I am not a C/C++ expert,
> then wasting the time of everybody
>
> It's urgently required, I did consider OP_RETURN as a dart in the past bu=
t
> changed my mind, it's adapted to the current evolutions, not flooding
> bitcoin with 2 txs while only 1 is needed
>
> If not the best 1 tx solution is super simple: store in addresses, and
> super bad at the end because burning bitcoins, while still not expensive =
if
> you don't need to store big things"
>
> Le 05/02/2023 =C3=A0 19:12, Russell O'Connor via bitcoin-dev a =C3=A9crit=
 :
>
>
>
> On Sat., Feb. 4, 2023, 21:01 Peter Todd, <pete@petertodd.org> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On February 5, 2023 1:11:35 AM GMT+01:00, Russell O'Connor via
>> bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>> >Since bytes in the witness are cheaper than bytes in the script pubkey,
>> >there is a crossover point in data size where it will simply be cheaper
>> to
>> >use witness data.  Where that crossover point is depends on the finer
>> >details of the overhead of the two methods, but you could make some
>> >reasonable assumptions.  Such a calculation could form the basis of a
>> >reasonable OP_RETURN proposal.  I don't know if it would be persuasive,
>> but
>> >it would at least be coherent.
>>
>> I don't think it's worth the technical complexity trying to carefully
>> argue a specific limit. Let users decide for themselves how they want to
>> use OpReturn.
>>
>
> Even better.
>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing listbitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.orghttps://list=
s.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>
>
> --
> Sophia-Antipolis, France
> CV: https://www.peersm.com/CVAV.pdf
> LinkedIn: https://fr.linkedin.com/in/aymeric-vitte-05855b26
> GitHub : https://www.github.com/Ayms
> A Universal Coin Swap system based on Bitcoin: https://gist.github.com/Ay=
ms/029125db2583e1cf9c3209769eb2cdd7
> A bitcoin NFT system: https://gist.github.com/Ayms/01dbfebf219965054b4a3b=
eed1bfeba7
> Move your coins by yourself (browser version): https://peersm.com/wallet
> Bitcoin transactions made simple: https://github.com/Ayms/bitcoin-transac=
tions
> torrent-live: https://github.com/Ayms/torrent-live
> node-Tor : https://www.github.com/Ayms/node-Tor
> Anti-spies and private torrents, dynamic blocklist: http://torrent-live.p=
eersm.com
> Peersm : http://www.peersm.com
>
>
> --
> Sophia-Antipolis, France
> CV: https://www.peersm.com/CVAV.pdf
> LinkedIn: https://fr.linkedin.com/in/aymeric-vitte-05855b26
> GitHub : https://www.github.com/Ayms
> A Universal Coin Swap system based on Bitcoin: https://gist.github.com/Ay=
ms/029125db2583e1cf9c3209769eb2cdd7
> A bitcoin NFT system: https://gist.github.com/Ayms/01dbfebf219965054b4a3b=
eed1bfeba7
> Move your coins by yourself (browser version): https://peersm.com/wallet
> Bitcoin transactions made simple: https://github.com/Ayms/bitcoin-transac=
tions
> torrent-live: https://github.com/Ayms/torrent-live
> node-Tor : https://www.github.com/Ayms/node-Tor
> Anti-spies and private torrents, dynamic blocklist: http://torrent-live.p=
eersm.com
> Peersm : http://www.peersm.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>

--00000000000096aaa005f4d6a1ba
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">I propose to require all data to be in the op_return outpu=
t PLUS add a required op_return_hash field, which is checked by consensus. =
So that node can re-validate the chain without having to store/download/loo=
k at the contents of op_return data. The benefit of that little redundancy =
is that &quot;content-sensitive&quot; communities can ignore the date they =
don&#39;t like.<div><br></div><div>Cheers</div><div>Claus</div></div><br><d=
iv class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu, Feb =
16, 2023 at 7:30 PM Aymeric Vitte via bitcoin-dev &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bit=
coin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</=
a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0p=
x 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
 =20
   =20
 =20
  <div bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF">
    <p>It&#39;s super unclear how long it could take for such a change to b=
e
      adopted</p>
    <p>Then the answer is simple, see:
<a href=3D"https://gist.github.com/Ayms/01dbfebf219965054b4a3beed1bfeba7#wo=
rkaround-to-the-80b-op_return-limitation" target=3D"_blank">https://gist.gi=
thub.com/Ayms/01dbfebf219965054b4a3beed1bfeba7#workaround-to-the-80b-op_ret=
urn-limitation</a></p>
    <p>Outstandingly, very, mega, bad, but working, bringing bitcoin
      back 10 years ago<br>
    </p>
    <p>But why not? If bitcoin folks don&#39;t get that we need a 1tx
      storage solution for the future, then let&#39;s bring back bitcoin
      into the past and destroy coins<br>
    </p>
    <div>Le 12/02/2023 =C3=A0 17:23, Aymeric Vitte a
      =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type=3D"cite">
     =20
      <p><a href=3D"https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/27043#issueco=
mment-1427069403" target=3D"_blank">https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issu=
es/27043#issuecomment-1427069403</a><br>
        <br>
        &quot;What is the process to have someone do the PR for this? Or I =
do
        it and most likely it will be a very shxtty one since I am not a
        C/C++ expert, then wasting the time of everybody<br>
        <br>
        It&#39;s urgently required, I did consider OP_RETURN as a dart in
        the past but changed my mind, it&#39;s adapted to the current
        evolutions, not flooding bitcoin with 2 txs while only 1 is
        needed<br>
        <br>
        If not the best 1 tx solution is super simple: store in
        addresses, and super bad at the end because burning bitcoins,
        while still not expensive if you don&#39;t need to store big things=
&quot;<br>
      </p>
      <br>
      <div>Le 05/02/2023 =C3=A0 19:12, Russell
        O&#39;Connor via bitcoin-dev a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:<br>
      </div>
      <blockquote type=3D"cite">
       =20
        <div dir=3D"auto">
          <div><br>
            <br>
            <div class=3D"gmail_quote">
              <div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sat., Feb. 4, 2023,
                21:01 Peter Todd, &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:pete@petertodd.org"=
 target=3D"_blank">pete@petertodd.org</a>&gt;
                wrote:<br>
              </div>
              <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px=
 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br>
                <br>
                On February 5, 2023 1:11:35 AM GMT+01:00, Russell
                O&#39;Connor via bitcoin-dev &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-=
dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">bitcoin=
-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>&gt;
                wrote:<br>
                &gt;Since bytes in the witness are cheaper than bytes in
                the script pubkey,<br>
                &gt;there is a crossover point in data size where it
                will simply be cheaper to<br>
                &gt;use witness data.=C2=A0 Where that crossover point is
                depends on the finer<br>
                &gt;details of the overhead of the two methods, but you
                could make some<br>
                &gt;reasonable assumptions.=C2=A0 Such a calculation could
                form the basis of a<br>
                &gt;reasonable OP_RETURN proposal.=C2=A0 I don&#39;t know i=
f it
                would be persuasive, but<br>
                &gt;it would at least be coherent.<br>
                <br>
                I don&#39;t think it&#39;s worth the technical complexity t=
rying
                to carefully argue a specific limit. Let users decide
                for themselves how they want to use OpReturn.<br>
              </blockquote>
            </div>
          </div>
          <div dir=3D"auto"><br>
          </div>
          <div dir=3D"auto">Even better.</div>
          <div dir=3D"auto">
            <div class=3D"gmail_quote">
              <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px=
 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> </blockquo=
te>
            </div>
          </div>
        </div>
        <br>
        <fieldset></fieldset>
        <br>
        <pre>_______________________________________________
bitcoin-dev mailing list
<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank">=
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>
<a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev" =
target=3D"_blank">https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoi=
n-dev</a>
</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <br>
      <pre cols=3D"72">--=20
Sophia-Antipolis, France
CV: <a href=3D"https://www.peersm.com/CVAV.pdf" target=3D"_blank">https://w=
ww.peersm.com/CVAV.pdf</a>
LinkedIn: <a href=3D"https://fr.linkedin.com/in/aymeric-vitte-05855b26" tar=
get=3D"_blank">https://fr.linkedin.com/in/aymeric-vitte-05855b26</a>
GitHub : <a href=3D"https://www.github.com/Ayms" target=3D"_blank">https://=
www.github.com/Ayms</a>
A Universal Coin Swap system based on Bitcoin: <a href=3D"https://gist.gith=
ub.com/Ayms/029125db2583e1cf9c3209769eb2cdd7" target=3D"_blank">https://gis=
t.github.com/Ayms/029125db2583e1cf9c3209769eb2cdd7</a>
A bitcoin NFT system: <a href=3D"https://gist.github.com/Ayms/01dbfebf21996=
5054b4a3beed1bfeba7" target=3D"_blank">https://gist.github.com/Ayms/01dbfeb=
f219965054b4a3beed1bfeba7</a>
Move your coins by yourself (browser version): <a href=3D"https://peersm.co=
m/wallet" target=3D"_blank">https://peersm.com/wallet</a>
Bitcoin transactions made simple: <a href=3D"https://github.com/Ayms/bitcoi=
n-transactions" target=3D"_blank">https://github.com/Ayms/bitcoin-transacti=
ons</a>
torrent-live: <a href=3D"https://github.com/Ayms/torrent-live" target=3D"_b=
lank">https://github.com/Ayms/torrent-live</a>
node-Tor : <a href=3D"https://www.github.com/Ayms/node-Tor" target=3D"_blan=
k">https://www.github.com/Ayms/node-Tor</a>
Anti-spies and private torrents, dynamic blocklist: <a href=3D"http://torre=
nt-live.peersm.com" target=3D"_blank">http://torrent-live.peersm.com</a>
Peersm : <a href=3D"http://www.peersm.com" target=3D"_blank">http://www.pee=
rsm.com</a></pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    <pre cols=3D"72">--=20
Sophia-Antipolis, France
CV: <a href=3D"https://www.peersm.com/CVAV.pdf" target=3D"_blank">https://w=
ww.peersm.com/CVAV.pdf</a>
LinkedIn: <a href=3D"https://fr.linkedin.com/in/aymeric-vitte-05855b26" tar=
get=3D"_blank">https://fr.linkedin.com/in/aymeric-vitte-05855b26</a>
GitHub : <a href=3D"https://www.github.com/Ayms" target=3D"_blank">https://=
www.github.com/Ayms</a>
A Universal Coin Swap system based on Bitcoin: <a href=3D"https://gist.gith=
ub.com/Ayms/029125db2583e1cf9c3209769eb2cdd7" target=3D"_blank">https://gis=
t.github.com/Ayms/029125db2583e1cf9c3209769eb2cdd7</a>
A bitcoin NFT system: <a href=3D"https://gist.github.com/Ayms/01dbfebf21996=
5054b4a3beed1bfeba7" target=3D"_blank">https://gist.github.com/Ayms/01dbfeb=
f219965054b4a3beed1bfeba7</a>
Move your coins by yourself (browser version): <a href=3D"https://peersm.co=
m/wallet" target=3D"_blank">https://peersm.com/wallet</a>
Bitcoin transactions made simple: <a href=3D"https://github.com/Ayms/bitcoi=
n-transactions" target=3D"_blank">https://github.com/Ayms/bitcoin-transacti=
ons</a>
torrent-live: <a href=3D"https://github.com/Ayms/torrent-live" target=3D"_b=
lank">https://github.com/Ayms/torrent-live</a>
node-Tor : <a href=3D"https://www.github.com/Ayms/node-Tor" target=3D"_blan=
k">https://www.github.com/Ayms/node-Tor</a>
Anti-spies and private torrents, dynamic blocklist: <a href=3D"http://torre=
nt-live.peersm.com" target=3D"_blank">http://torrent-live.peersm.com</a>
Peersm : <a href=3D"http://www.peersm.com" target=3D"_blank">http://www.pee=
rsm.com</a></pre>
  </div>

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</blockquote></div>

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