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Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2015 12:30:54 -0600
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From: Nathan Wilcox <nathan@leastauthority.com>
To: Peter Todd <pete@petertodd.org>
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Cc: Bitcoin Development <bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net>
Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] Proposal: SPV Fee Discovery mechanism
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On Wed, Jun 10, 2015 at 2:03 PM, Peter Todd <pete@petertodd.org> wrote:
> On Wed, Jun 10, 2015 at 02:00:27PM -0600, Nathan Wilcox wrote:
> > On Wed, Jun 10, 2015 at 1:19 PM, Aaron Voisine <voisine@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > > It could be done by agreeing on a data format and encoding it in an
> > > op_return output in the coinbase transaction. If it catches on it could
> > > later be enforced with a soft fork.
> > >
> > >
> > Sounds plausible, except SPV protocols would need to include this
> coinbase
> > txn if it's going to help SPV clients. (Until a softfork is activated,
> SPV
> > clients should not rely on this encoding, since until that time the
> results
> > can be fabricated by individual miners.)
>
> Fee stats can always be fabricated by individual miners because fees can
> be paid out-of-band.
>
>
This is a point I hadn't considered carefully before. I don't understand
the marketplace here or why miners would want to move fees outside of
explicit inband fees. Implicit in this proposal is that the statistics only
cover in-band data, because that's the scope of consensus rules, and thus
the proposal is only as useful as the information of in-band fees is useful.
I've also noticed a detracting technical argument given a particular
tradeoff:
A Header-PoW-verifying client could still be given all transactions in a
recent block, from which it can see the in-band fees directly. The
trade-off is the size of those transactions versus the need to alter any
consensus rules or do soft forks.
Notice how this trade-off's costs change with maximum block size.
> --
> 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org
> 00000000000000001245bd2f5c99379ee76836227ded9c08324894faabc0d27f
>
--
Nathan Wilcox
Least Authoritarian
email: nathan@leastauthority.com
twitter: @least_nathan
PGP: 11169993 / AAAC 5675 E3F7 514C 67ED E9C9 3BFE 5263 1116 9993
--089e01634d6e21a5e10518423130
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<div dir=3D"ltr">On Wed, Jun 10, 2015 at 2:03 PM, Peter Todd <span dir=3D"l=
tr"><<a href=3D"mailto:pete@petertodd.org" target=3D"_blank">pete@petert=
odd.org</a>></span> wrote:<br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"g=
mail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bo=
rder-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><span class=3D"">On Wed, Jun 10,=
2015 at 02:00:27PM -0600, Nathan Wilcox wrote:<br>
> On Wed, Jun 10, 2015 at 1:19 PM, Aaron Voisine <<a href=3D"mailto:v=
oisine@gmail.com">voisine@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
><br>
> > It could be done by agreeing on a data format and encoding it in =
an<br>
> > op_return output in the coinbase transaction. If it catches on it=
could<br>
> > later be enforced with a soft fork.<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> Sounds plausible, except SPV protocols would need to include this coin=
base<br>
> txn if it's going to help SPV clients. (Until a softfork is activa=
ted, SPV<br>
> clients should not rely on this encoding, since until that time the re=
sults<br>
> can be fabricated by individual miners.)<br>
<br>
</span>Fee stats can always be fabricated by individual miners because fees=
can<br>
be paid out-of-band.<br>
<span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br></font></span></blockquo=
te><div><br></div><div>This is a point I hadn't considered carefully be=
fore. I don't understand the marketplace here or why miners would want =
to move fees outside of explicit inband fees. Implicit in this proposal is =
that the statistics only cover in-band data, because that's the scope o=
f consensus rules, and thus the proposal is only as useful as the informati=
on of in-band fees is useful.<br><br>I've also noticed a detracting tec=
hnical argument given a particular tradeoff:<br><br>A Header-PoW-verifying =
client could still be given all transactions in a recent block, from which =
it can see the in-band fees directly.=C2=A0 The trade-off is the size of th=
ose transactions versus the need to alter any consensus rules or do soft fo=
rks.<br><br></div><div>Notice how this trade-off's costs change with ma=
ximum block size.<br><br><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gm=
ail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-le=
ft:1ex"><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888">
--<br>
'peter'[:-1]@<a href=3D"http://petertodd.org" target=3D"_blank">pet=
ertodd.org</a><br>
00000000000000001245bd2f5c99379ee76836227ded9c08324894faabc0d27f<br>
</font></span></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><div clas=
s=3D"gmail_signature">Nathan Wilcox<br>Least Authoritarian<br><br>email: <a=
href=3D"mailto:nathan@leastauthority.com" target=3D"_blank">nathan@leastau=
thority.com</a><br>twitter: @least_nathan<br>PGP: 11169993 / AAAC 5675 E3F7=
514C 67ED =C2=A0E9C9 3BFE 5263 1116 9993<br></div>
</div></div>
--089e01634d6e21a5e10518423130--
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