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Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2025 17:15:20 +0000
To: Sjors Provoost <sjors@sprovoost.nl>
From: "'Antoine Poinsot' via Bitcoin Development Mailing List" <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>
Cc: James O'Beirne <james.obeirne@gmail.com>, Andrew Poelstra <apoelstra@wpsoftware.net>, "David A. Harding" <dave@dtrt.org>, Bitcoin Development Mailing List <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] CTV + CSFS: a letter
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> From both your and Andrew's mail we can distill a relevant factor: pretty=
 much everyone who is excited about (feature) soft forks is not working on =
Bitcoin Core.

This is incorrect. I am excited about potential extensions to Bitcoin's scr=
ipting capabilities. I know at least Greg Sanders and Anthony Towns have sh=
own interest, given their substantial contributions in this area. You are s=
howing interest too, and i know others are interested. This is plenty of in=
dividuals that are both interested in "feature" soft forks and contributing=
 to the Bitcoin Core project.

I won't take the bait into responding to people breaking Chatham House rule=
 to steer political drama. But the reason for the lack of progress of these=
 proposals and others is not to be found with Core contributors.




On Tuesday, June 10th, 2025 at 1:03 PM, Sjors Provoost <sjors@sprovoost.nl>=
 wrote:

>=20
>=20
> Hi James,
>=20
> From both your and Andrew's mail we can distill a relevant factor: pretty=
 much everyone who is excited about (feature) soft forks is not working on =
Bitcoin Core.
>=20
> A few, such as yourself and Jeremy, were in the past but stopped doing so=
.
>=20
> Although trying to persuade more people inside the project to review and =
further develop these proposals is useful - methods and tone tbd - also con=
sider the opposite: convince more people who want these changes to start co=
ntributing to Bitcoin Core.
>=20
> Perhaps there should be grants specifically for people working on this, b=
ecause as you point out it's quite the uphill battle and rebase hell. That'=
s even true for proposals with broad support inside the project, just ask A=
ntoine Poinsot what experience led him to (temporarily) rage-close BIP54 [0=
].
>=20
> There are of course two downsides to that approach:
>=20
> 1. It takes years to ramp up. The best time to plant a tree is ten years =
ago. But it's been six years and multiple developers could have been ramped=
 up by now. To be fair, grant budgets were pretty tight until only two year=
s ago.[1]
>=20
> 2. As a new developer becomes familiar with the project, they develop the=
ir own list of priorities which may no longer include the soft fork they we=
re originally excited about.
>=20
> Both can be overcome and if the industry is serious about these proposals=
 they should allocate such resources. This sounds like a cop-out:
>=20
> > Many of the signers are builders capable of evaluating the proposals,
>=20
> but don't necessarily have the time to opine on Delving threads or write
> prototypes because they are, well, building things for actual end use.
>=20
> With grants one does have to careful to not create an incentive where the=
 new developer has to achieve soft fork activation at all cost. Too much of=
 that will lead to massive friction and burn them out very quickly, as Mike=
 Hearn, Gavin Andresen and Jeff Garzik can probably attest. I don't how to =
best encode "don't put too much ego in your proposal, it will be your undoi=
ng" in a grant contract.
>=20
> ---
>=20
> Let me also speak a bit to my own motivation. Vaults appear to be the onl=
y feature enabled by the proposal that I personally find important enough t=
o work on.
>=20
> Bear in mind that my main priority in these six months is getting Stratum=
 v2 readiness in v30 [2], in order to end the situation Poelstra described,=
 and to ensure Bitcoin Core is no longer a bottleneck:
>=20
> > and yet if you want to mine from your local node on a local miner
>=20
> today you need to run Sjors' personal fork of the project plus two
> other daemons.
>=20
> Congestion control seems highly premature, Lightning works well enough fo=
r me, which makes me less motivated to look into LN-Symmetry - though I'm h=
appy to test a working demo. I don't see an urgent need for alternative L2 =
systems.
>=20
> Up until quite recently it seemed to me that the momentum for vaults was =
in OP_VAULT, which in turn would require OP_CTV. But a single purpose op co=
de is not ideal, so this project didn't seem to be going anywhere.
>=20
> I only realised yesterday that the vaults enabled by just CTV are much mo=
re ergonomic than I assumed, so I'll (continue to) look into CTV from that =
perspective [4].
>=20
> A fully fleshed out shielded CSV demo is another thing that would motivat=
e me to review things. That actually helps with a very serious problem: pri=
vacy.
>=20
> That's why I would prefer a more powerful soft fork, conditional on peopl=
e doing a proper analysis on the MeVil issue - instead of the current strat=
egy of avoiding it. I'd get my vaults, and the BitVM folks can have at it, =
hopefully with less crazy transactions.
>=20
> Or is CTV + CSFS enough for that? My naive impression is that CCV + CAT +=
 64 bit arithmetic would be much more useful there, allowing a bridge witho=
ut BitVM. But maybe it's a good enough start? I suppose Poelstra co-signed =
for a reason :-)
>=20
> Conversely, I don't oppose CTV + CSFS; I haven't seen an argument that th=
ey're harmful. Since there's little MeVil potential, I could also imagine o=
ther developers carefully developing and rolling out these changes. I would=
 just keep an eye on the process.
>=20
> What I would oppose is a Python based alternative implementation and acti=
vation client like co-signer Paul Sztorc proposed.[3]
>=20
> Cheers,
>=20
> Sjors
>=20
> [0] https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/pull/1800#issuecomment-2836126414
> [1] https://opensats.org/blog/opensats-receives-additional-funding-of-dol=
lar10m-from-startsmall
> [2] https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/31098
> [3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DImUCulfr1cE
> [4] https://delvingbitcoin.org/t/ctv-vault-output-descriptor/1766
>=20
>=20
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups=
 "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an=
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> To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoinde=
v/0B7CEBEE-FB2B-41CF-9347-B9C1C246B94D%40sprovoost.nl.

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