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From: Keagan McClelland <keagan.mcclelland@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2022 08:48:40 -0500
Message-ID: <CALeFGL1rHoQUBEGgT_3E0jMa2400uFE4U3f+c5Tz1r4u5zuzow@mail.gmail.com>
To: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>,
 John Carvalho <john@synonym.to>
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Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Bitcoin covenants are inevitable
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> will never be justifiable simply because you and some of your friends
think it is totally cool and might make more people like you or give your
friends funding.

100%

But while the OP may have given less than ideal reasons for things like
covenants, it does not broadly characterize the reasons for adding them to
the Bitcoin protocol. The reasons to do so are:

- better self custody solutions that don=E2=80=99t rely on the trust of nam=
ed third
parties
- significantly more tractable solutions for things like coin pools
- significantly more efficient DLCs

These are not =E2=80=9Chackathon project=E2=80=9D reasons and are the main =
reasons people
advocate for covenants.

> None of the quoted following items are features or responsibilities of
the Bitcoin software, nor Core developers.

Since you seem to have the stone tablets onto which our responsibilities
are etched, would you care to enumerate them?

> Whether you are a child or an attacker, none of us should care,

Are you incapable of actually treating people with respect or do you think
that bullying people on this mailing list is the most effective way to get
what you want? If it=E2=80=99s the latter I may suggest you go back to Twit=
ter
where that works and maybe just leave those comments out of the mailing
list if you actually want to convince people of your point of view.

Keagan

On Sat, Jun 4, 2022 at 7:37 AM John Carvalho via bitcoin-dev <
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:

> Core development is not a hackathon project.
>
> None of the quoted following items are features or responsibilities of th=
e
> Bitcoin software, nor Core developers.
>
> Quoted:
> "- Developers can build interesting projects with real demand in market.
> - Students learn Sapio and not just solidity.
> - Better tooling could be available for application developers.
> - Maybe we see bitcoin developer hackathons in different countries.
> - Demand for block space might increase, it wont be just exchanges and
> coinjoin.
> - Funding of bitcoin developers and projects might improve. Wont need to
> convince a few people for grants."
>
> Whether you are a child or an attacker, none of us should care, but CTV,
> nor any change to Bitcoin software, will never be justifiable simply
> because you and some of your friends think it is totally cool and might
> make more people like you or give your friends funding.
>
> Please stop making noise about CTV, this is not a place for spamming.
>
> --
> John Carvalho
>
>
>
> On Sat, Jun 4, 2022 at 1:00 PM <
> bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>
>>
>> Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2022 18:39:34 +0000
>> From: alicexbt <alicexbt@protonmail.com>
>> To: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion
>>         <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
>> Subject: [bitcoin-dev] Bitcoin covenants are inevitable
>> Message-ID:
>>
>> <QOWIpROGDv5HHP2GsDiSOsTJ9TVZhFeSP3C03_e2Z3XtOKC_4N5GJtxbdlxuhErvhLZXo1R=
n_7SWAQ9XRPwHFuYyArZryTVENefDZuGTAYA=3D@
>> protonmail.com>
>>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dutf-8
>>
>> Note: This email is an opinion and not an attack on bitcoin
>>
>> Covenants on bitcoin will eventually be implemented with a soft fork. CT=
V
>> is the easiest and best possible way OP_TX looks good as well. Apart fro=
m
>> the technical merits, covenants will improve a few other things:
>>
>> - Developers can build interesting projects with real demand in market.
>> - Students learn Sapio and not just solidity.
>> - Better tooling could be available for application developers.
>> - Maybe we see bitcoin developer hackathons in different countries.
>> - Demand for block space might increase, it wont be just exchanges and
>> coinjoin.
>> - Funding of bitcoin developers and projects might improve. Wont need to
>> convince a few people for grants.
>>
>> **Why covenants are not contentious?**
>>
>> Some people may write paragraphs about CTV being contentious, spread
>> misinformation and do all types of drama, politics etc. on social media =
but
>> there are zero technical NACKs for CTV. We have discussed other covenant
>> proposals in detail on mailing list and IRC meetings with an open minded
>> approach.
>>
>> All the developers that participated in the discussion are either okay
>> with CTV or OP_TX or covenants in general.
>>
>> **How and when should covenants be implemented in Bitcoin?**
>>
>> I don't think we should wait for years anticipating a proposal that
>> everyone will agree on or argue for years to pretend changes are hard in
>> Bitcoin. We should improve the review process for soft fork BIPs and sha=
re
>> honest opinions with agreement, disagreement on technical merits.
>>
>> I prefer BIP 8 or improved BIP 8 for soft fork but I won't mind anything
>> else being used if that improves Bitcoin. Covenants implemented in Bitco=
in
>> before the next cycle would provide opportunity for developers to build
>> interesting things during the bear market. Ossification supporters also
>> believe there is some window that will close soon, maybe doing changes
>> considering each case individually will be a better approach. CTV is not=
 a
>> rushed soft fork, less people followed the research and it was not
>> mentioned on social media repeatedly by the respected developers like ot=
her
>> soft forks.
>>
>> /dev/fd0
>>
>>
>> Sent with Proton Mail secure email.
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>

--000000000000c7cf1d05e09f7fd1
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"auto">&gt;=C2=A0<span style=3D"word-spacing:1px;color:rgb(49,49=
,49)">will never be justifiable=C2=A0simply because you and some of your fr=
iends think it is totally cool and might make more people like you or give =
your friends funding.</span></div><div dir=3D"auto"><span style=3D"word-spa=
cing:1px;color:rgb(49,49,49)"><br></span></div><div dir=3D"auto"><span styl=
e=3D"word-spacing:1px;color:rgb(49,49,49)">100%</span></div><div dir=3D"aut=
o"><span style=3D"word-spacing:1px;color:rgb(49,49,49)"><br></span></div><d=
iv dir=3D"auto"><span style=3D"word-spacing:1px;color:rgb(49,49,49)">But wh=
ile the OP may have given less than ideal reasons for things like covenants=
, it does not broadly characterize the reasons for adding them to the Bitco=
in protocol. The reasons to do so are:</span></div><div dir=3D"auto"><span =
style=3D"word-spacing:1px;color:rgb(49,49,49)"><br></span></div><div dir=3D=
"auto"><span style=3D"word-spacing:1px;color:rgb(49,49,49)">- better self c=
ustody solutions that don=E2=80=99t rely on the trust of named third partie=
s</span></div><div dir=3D"auto"><span style=3D"word-spacing:1px;color:rgb(4=
9,49,49)">- significantly more tractable solutions for things like coin poo=
ls</span></div><div dir=3D"auto"><span style=3D"word-spacing:1px;color:rgb(=
49,49,49)">- significantly more efficient DLCs</span></div><div dir=3D"auto=
"><span style=3D"word-spacing:1px;color:rgb(49,49,49)"><br></span></div><di=
v style=3D"background-color:rgba(0,0,0,0)!important;border-color:rgb(255,25=
5,255)!important" dir=3D"auto"><font style=3D"color:rgb(49,49,49)"><span st=
yle=3D"word-spacing:1px">These are not =E2=80=9Chackathon project=E2=80=9D =
reasons and are the main reasons people advocate for covenants.</span></fon=
t></div><div style=3D"background-color:rgba(0,0,0,0);border-color:rgb(255,2=
55,255)" dir=3D"auto"><font style=3D"color:rgb(49,49,49)"><span style=3D"wo=
rd-spacing:1px"><br></span></font></div><div style=3D"background-color:rgba=
(0,0,0,0);border-color:rgb(255,255,255)" dir=3D"auto"><font style=3D"color:=
rgb(49,49,49)"><span style=3D"word-spacing:1px">&gt;=C2=A0</span></font><sp=
an style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)">None of the quoted following items are featur=
es=C2=A0or responsibilities=C2=A0of the Bitcoin software, nor Core develope=
rs.</span></div><div style=3D"background-color:rgba(0,0,0,0);border-color:r=
gb(255,255,255)" dir=3D"auto"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></span><=
/div><div style=3D"background-color:rgba(0,0,0,0);border-color:rgb(255,255,=
255)" dir=3D"auto"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)">Since you seem to have =
the stone tablets onto which our responsibilities are etched, would you car=
e to enumerate them?</span></div><div style=3D"background-color:rgba(0,0,0,=
0);border-color:rgb(255,255,255)" dir=3D"auto"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0=
,0)"><br></span></div><div style=3D"background-color:rgba(0,0,0,0);border-c=
olor:rgb(255,255,255)" dir=3D"auto"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)">&gt;=
=C2=A0</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)">Whether you are a child or an=
 attacker, none of us should care,</span></div><div style=3D"background-col=
or:rgba(0,0,0,0);border-color:rgb(255,255,255)" dir=3D"auto"><span style=3D=
"color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></span></div><div style=3D"background-color:rgba(0,0=
,0,0);border-color:rgb(255,255,255)" dir=3D"auto"><span style=3D"color:rgb(=
0,0,0)">Are you incapable of actually treating people with respect or do yo=
u think that bullying people on this mailing list is the most effective way=
 to get what you want? If it=E2=80=99s the latter I may suggest you go back=
 to Twitter where that works and maybe just leave those comments out of the=
 mailing list if you actually want to convince people of your point of view=
.</span></div><div style=3D"background-color:rgba(0,0,0,0);border-color:rgb=
(255,255,255)" dir=3D"auto"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></span></d=
iv><div style=3D"background-color:rgba(0,0,0,0);border-color:rgb(255,255,25=
5)" dir=3D"auto"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)">Keagan</span></div><div><=
br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sat,=
 Jun 4, 2022 at 7:37 AM John Carvalho via bitcoin-dev &lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.o=
rg</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margi=
n:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-l=
eft:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"lt=
r">Core development is not a hackathon project.<br></div><div><br></div><di=
v>None of the quoted following items are features=C2=A0or responsibilities=
=C2=A0of the Bitcoin software, nor Core developers.=C2=A0</div><div><br></d=
iv><div>Quoted:</div><div>&quot;- Developers can build interesting projects=
 with real demand in market.<br>- Students learn Sapio and not just solidit=
y.<br>- Better tooling could be available for application developers.<br>- =
Maybe we see bitcoin developer hackathons in different countries.<br>- Dema=
nd for block space might increase, it wont be just exchanges and coinjoin.<=
br>- Funding of bitcoin developers and projects might improve. Wont need to=
 convince a few people for grants.&quot;<br></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></di=
v><div>Whether you are a child or an attacker, none of us should care, but =
CTV, nor any change to Bitcoin software, will never be justifiable=C2=A0sim=
ply because you and some of your friends think it is totally cool and might=
 make more people like you or give your friends funding.</div><div><br></di=
v><div>Please stop making noise about CTV, this is not a place for spamming=
.</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br clear=3D"all"><div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-smartm=
ail=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><span style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34)=
">--</span><br style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34)"><div dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"colo=
r:rgb(34,34,34)"><div dir=3D"ltr">John Carvalho</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><=
/div></div></div></div></div><br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sat, Jun 4, 2022 at 1:00 PM &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank"=
>bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blo=
ckquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left=
-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(2=
04,204,204)"><br>
Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2022 18:39:34 +0000<br>
From: alicexbt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:alicexbt@protonmail.com" target=3D"_bl=
ank">alicexbt@protonmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
To: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfo=
undation.org" target=3D"_blank">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>&g=
t;<br>
Subject: [bitcoin-dev] Bitcoin covenants are inevitable<br>
Message-ID:<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;QOWIpROGDv5HHP2GsDiSOsTJ9TVZhFeSP3C03_e2Z3X=
tOKC_4N5GJtxbdlxuhErvhLZXo1Rn_7SWAQ9XRPwHFuYyArZryTVENefDZuGTAYA=3D@<a href=
=3D"http://protonmail.com" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">protonmail.=
com</a>&gt;<br>
<br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dutf-8<br>
<br>
Note: This email is an opinion and not an attack on bitcoin<br>
<br>
Covenants on bitcoin will eventually be implemented with a soft fork. CTV i=
s the easiest and best possible way OP_TX looks good as well. Apart from th=
e technical merits, covenants will improve a few other things:<br>
<br>
- Developers can build interesting projects with real demand in market.<br>
- Students learn Sapio and not just solidity.<br>
- Better tooling could be available for application developers.<br>
- Maybe we see bitcoin developer hackathons in different countries.<br>
- Demand for block space might increase, it wont be just exchanges and coin=
join.<br>
- Funding of bitcoin developers and projects might improve. Wont need to co=
nvince a few people for grants.<br>
<br>
**Why covenants are not contentious?**<br>
<br>
Some people may write paragraphs about CTV being contentious, spread misinf=
ormation and do all types of drama, politics etc. on social media but there=
 are zero technical NACKs for CTV. We have discussed other covenant proposa=
ls in detail on mailing list and IRC meetings with an open minded approach.=
<br>
<br>
All the developers that participated in the discussion are either okay with=
 CTV or OP_TX or covenants in general.<br>
<br>
**How and when should covenants be implemented in Bitcoin?**<br>
<br>
I don&#39;t think we should wait for years anticipating a proposal that eve=
ryone will agree on or argue for years to pretend changes are hard in Bitco=
in. We should improve the review process for soft fork BIPs and share hones=
t opinions with agreement, disagreement on technical merits.<br>
<br>
I prefer BIP 8 or improved BIP 8 for soft fork but I won&#39;t mind anythin=
g else being used if that improves Bitcoin. Covenants implemented in Bitcoi=
n before the next cycle would provide opportunity for developers to build i=
nteresting things during the bear market. Ossification supporters also beli=
eve there is some window that will close soon, maybe doing changes consider=
ing each case individually will be a better approach. CTV is not a rushed s=
oft fork, less people followed the research and it was not mentioned on soc=
ial media repeatedly by the respected developers like other soft forks.<br>
<br>
/dev/fd0<br>
<br>
<br>
Sent with Proton Mail secure email.<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
</blockquote></div></div>
_______________________________________________<br>
bitcoin-dev mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank">=
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev" =
rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mail=
man/listinfo/bitcoin-dev</a><br>
</blockquote></div></div>

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