1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
30
31
32
33
34
35
36
37
38
39
40
41
42
43
44
45
46
47
48
49
50
51
52
53
54
55
56
57
58
59
60
61
62
63
64
65
66
67
68
69
70
71
72
73
74
75
76
77
78
79
80
81
82
83
84
85
86
87
88
89
90
91
92
93
94
95
96
97
98
99
100
101
102
103
104
105
106
107
108
109
110
111
112
113
114
115
116
117
118
119
120
121
122
123
124
125
126
127
128
129
130
131
132
133
134
135
136
137
138
139
140
141
142
143
144
145
146
147
148
149
150
151
152
153
154
155
156
157
158
159
160
161
162
163
164
165
166
167
168
169
170
171
172
173
174
175
176
177
178
179
180
181
182
183
184
185
186
187
188
189
190
191
192
193
194
195
196
197
198
199
200
201
202
203
204
205
206
207
208
209
210
211
212
213
214
215
216
217
218
219
220
221
222
223
224
225
226
227
228
229
230
231
232
233
234
235
236
237
238
239
240
241
242
243
244
245
246
247
|
Delivery-date: Sat, 26 Apr 2025 05:51:06 -0700
Received: from mail-oa1-f64.google.com ([209.85.160.64])
by mail.fairlystable.org with esmtps (TLS1.3) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256
(Exim 4.94.2)
(envelope-from <bitcoindev+bncBAABBL5NWPAAMGQEURBYGEY@googlegroups.com>)
id 1u8ezp-0002e1-Iv
for bitcoindev@gnusha.org; Sat, 26 Apr 2025 05:51:06 -0700
Received: by mail-oa1-f64.google.com with SMTP id 586e51a60fabf-2d02e8b3f7asf1373685fac.3
for <bitcoindev@gnusha.org>; Sat, 26 Apr 2025 05:51:05 -0700 (PDT)
ARC-Seal: i=2; a=rsa-sha256; t=1745671859; cv=pass;
d=google.com; s=arc-20240605;
b=kBy2jopEs/YMfOIULXX77eaE0WejeWh4OqQDjQ1h3lNThWbSfSewfPBxkanhv1nOCb
rlNno1BEfKjSBZlmIJgA94uU1Y9jl5+kIMYV+sLGC97JHySdJI9slX5rthIdGnlzLaty
Kh9J4YFhCKFCbqOBS0Luvx8/0POlIVCb4e7ascCTEWE5UuxMsURr1jUipWlxcmpdSYnP
vx7fHA+gBQqmH5RA/zCawgbQQvu3OjPmKSUk+o1cHmXn3pOe+3Zh9yo7qV5Qvx9ot4Vh
16ha/ipdJIv/4tEuPw/Z/OKDSi+z8tHiBiXYs+iR0R2zHZmToPUgRST0doKO2/JvJnSP
Nshw==
ARC-Message-Signature: i=2; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=arc-20240605;
h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post
:list-id:mailing-list:precedence:content-transfer-encoding
:mime-version:feedback-id:references:in-reply-to:message-id:subject
:cc:from:to:date:sender:dkim-signature;
bh=l2MFaGZbt+idmkvlqgtPcYga+Jtb1weO6tbjL9YoIWs=;
fh=jywcQHyl88gwzGK0cHGrv7h4lw7GqrMWnqF9WKguPdQ=;
b=dV+NzlPrNodRi3Fmj3gqfNbgH//KXGq1dyCpHmN2fHAQnK+KoA5jIpdQ562h4/Aa/X
2RBqktlRTSo4v2vHF1Ul0rXVhsYTQqFxvlXoAccyx01Mn+PnNjnqVV8hUyl7qO0AjCMl
C5jwGbfDvaviV1SmZyufL1E/Ffq8AKz8mocqWZgocDgOTvVKxMdiH7+cJHaCVqbH2kDS
B6A3lHU6n7n6XaBooPKxg2aRFB5pCha4/EAE3F5TtiXN7udeAXO76UPTS4/3CbetT2G8
/3/clHQ7osGy7MHbXOJXcGz/rXbbwAsCm8MZ4bLXqIT3scZZhuBdmZ7dYHTSqdmR9/ti
C8ow==;
darn=gnusha.org
ARC-Authentication-Results: i=2; gmr-mx.google.com;
dkim=pass header.i=@wuille.net header.s=protonmail2 header.b=YCHO0eBI;
spf=pass (google.com: domain of bitcoin-dev@wuille.net designates 109.224.244.20 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=bitcoin-dev@wuille.net;
dmarc=pass (p=NONE sp=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=wuille.net
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
d=googlegroups.com; s=20230601; t=1745671859; x=1746276659; darn=gnusha.org;
h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post
:list-id:mailing-list:precedence:x-original-authentication-results
:x-original-sender:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version
:feedback-id:references:in-reply-to:message-id:subject:cc:from:to
:date:sender:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to;
bh=l2MFaGZbt+idmkvlqgtPcYga+Jtb1weO6tbjL9YoIWs=;
b=rrIxpPy/T4l3PBfHnHBQESja5mhLftbmmpMbYF+BnS4pIIcjAAUoW7ME8WlEEazpJM
yZ+0klRM/TafvCMb16cpvPfVdVSkdGRha/Mzvb/CuKhYKCjw68gRG0cda+RCsTCTSCqA
cM21MxDv4v0msWf+rDeqmWsXHKn4gXSrAVgOc+iAiXUlkaYnrsi4BgSd72IrxR5RZkdN
a8l5lHVLMw14iBauePmxzzfYYX6c9lQd+S+eeFbAGWojBKL56yA2HcmtokVfQXxscxYh
EpjczZxn/HeZxjUC3ScUeJD7EcT6/6cztD8KFkWs1kKq+cCCMTWsKWkmuHe5itAzTnVE
BKyQ==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1745671859; x=1746276659;
h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post
:list-id:mailing-list:precedence:x-original-authentication-results
:x-original-sender:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version
:feedback-id:references:in-reply-to:message-id:subject:cc:from:to
:date:x-beenthere:x-gm-message-state:sender:from:to:cc:subject:date
:message-id:reply-to;
bh=l2MFaGZbt+idmkvlqgtPcYga+Jtb1weO6tbjL9YoIWs=;
b=vPxFxgyYvoYRpqXJ8HBmuxT+hGG9rd7zML7cJqKiRJtCUs8KMT1FZ7V5xBWAbjaSoC
tsH0E2VVboFZGei8mGpkbGqPJN3XUbnzT29Dm7VEllzliGErLgPjNFtJfEqWoQRXE8nH
koW2CxFBrG+PBpXV4/8z+znmpqxsO14Xh0c/xsm14ZrGaaMxlrA8P6NCFeNj+tXc60qv
2zyggJ8P9D4d2R/70ccCvZn3TYGTM0ECuHtXZBXdlpLkOe9OAB11MuYCy5rIXTOaIvgo
lQzCYPkORveQPcfJUZZ50wb3bu8bp69Atp/pTYY5Xr6z4vM5yt8gAzPV2nGMfBtQH/y+
T6jA==
Sender: bitcoindev@googlegroups.com
X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=2; AJvYcCWIeTOLvfXcMZecBQ63Ym1BrHvdiC9doKUG1f+2/jVAhlbqWuRIo9vCsuCPtDObRrM52j/YlahJjQRh@gnusha.org
X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Ywuf36Jnbshoz8/hpK+6YUUxAkfv7iktvyeX/NX3qyd+CYiAcDv
Q2i5lUJGtUvtD1SdQmG4/c4O8SVpJWzv0gpmrTz49mXmjgMVjLiB
X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IGdD1qlvMuw8SMA2r22FNekOaJ3kCTAyQsfsxSD3XOgq1U6hnSQP9j0At2VbwnQYUSzsDGVTA==
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6808:2222:b0:3fe:af0a:37cd with SMTP id 5614622812f47-401f27c1fc6mr1153633b6e.0.1745671859273;
Sat, 26 Apr 2025 05:50:59 -0700 (PDT)
X-BeenThere: bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; h=AVT/gBFuvaH3bj90Xtj+KR/ygut5ArF4YxIJEIMaFRtCMhyRZQ==
Received: by 2002:a05:6870:241d:b0:2d5:b2af:47ad with SMTP id
586e51a60fabf-2d965a84a9dls1113111fac.1.-pod-prod-04-us; Sat, 26 Apr 2025
05:50:55 -0700 (PDT)
X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=2; AJvYcCUK021kYihKhP4Bmi0etDv41NU9XlDLmyTsKpb5TbJkKgixAqSG2UsBYyaKU4TkhOG+aCud8PE+NRq/@googlegroups.com
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6808:3a09:b0:3f8:150b:f55e with SMTP id 5614622812f47-401fd6ec26fmr1844240b6e.4.1745671855496;
Sat, 26 Apr 2025 05:50:55 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 2002:a05:6808:1d0:b0:3f6:a384:eb6f with SMTP id 5614622812f47-401f2e72ab9msb6e;
Sat, 26 Apr 2025 05:48:09 -0700 (PDT)
X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=2; AJvYcCWMn+1k4scM8VLoBGThSuN1fknbKY4bAwbRAgxUXhHjK4zwjtJm/QkEKMnscqBxUq9LMzNrtAqmmuBW@googlegroups.com
X-Received: by 2002:a92:c26a:0:b0:3d6:d162:be12 with SMTP id e9e14a558f8ab-3d942e424bcmr30861045ab.21.1745671688958;
Sat, 26 Apr 2025 05:48:08 -0700 (PDT)
ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; t=1745671688; cv=none;
d=google.com; s=arc-20240605;
b=I8TztpPj+SFcUr9b9aQq9errSM7TODYFSVC9agNadFqBZ224x01h69GgaS99t1+FxJ
RHunhCgZBQEFeBs5Um0FBUa3orrWdnXyxq/zIuovd45lWH+a6xPXuz7sr9nm69xuLIn+
2Ud93XC6pspLPQikzYTj03V8+6KcfBd3N/fT6/TsX+kCxczHWyawhu+LoQRCgin1lCl5
2iGuXT7nAanlz/bF0fgWa51We6xV4RoZarRpXVdKH5COA2Hyfr3/FFS1Ehvl1GgcJ9M2
8Jq7FAdBas4mSkjrH/CtBtBQliG22Izextah4bG9kfS0xPHyCHfluxxr0DsD8rMK5lHl
5x+g==
ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=arc-20240605;
h=content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:feedback-id:references
:in-reply-to:message-id:subject:cc:from:to:date:dkim-signature;
bh=t14dA3YTFyrNYHHdJDUl3DL3uDX6xu66qGhY6M3K1vo=;
fh=xfFRnajEOZ543kGItD7JPDLZd3kxeklAND3abEib+Fo=;
b=i4BO2whMpEfSZjr8LfIg2mX4CiCMRfa7BEKcQehtiP+FyVW9B+ur4wjHDSrgezA2mf
oJsS9HfS6bhQZJpDfmHOua999INpQicv5/h/cG+x7y9Xb29glCk6iuiNQfOY/G5O459S
Of2nM3PNq0Nn3yXs9PVcHWQ8J0OZQZjRarraXFg8R+AaSft/Rmvz33NPGOWdH0G3gwVn
XPAr2foAjGQbe7MBSXn792El8HC3N3pc5aeey9i2fYF3gkKCGZ9sxYKeA7LE0DLRc8nu
xRWfJvvQNTF1LWhE4XTLhUqAndwv0BaDpy937vSnJN9Ukt1MnE2mFM3Z0U+9H+sKZZK0
oLHg==;
dara=google.com
ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; gmr-mx.google.com;
dkim=pass header.i=@wuille.net header.s=protonmail2 header.b=YCHO0eBI;
spf=pass (google.com: domain of bitcoin-dev@wuille.net designates 109.224.244.20 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=bitcoin-dev@wuille.net;
dmarc=pass (p=NONE sp=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=wuille.net
Received: from mail-24420.protonmail.ch (mail-24420.protonmail.ch. [109.224.244.20])
by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 8926c6da1cb9f-4f8249f8b65si70670173.1.2025.04.26.05.48.08
for <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>
(version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256);
Sat, 26 Apr 2025 05:48:08 -0700 (PDT)
Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of bitcoin-dev@wuille.net designates 109.224.244.20 as permitted sender) client-ip=109.224.244.20;
Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2025 12:48:00 +0000
To: Luke Dashjr <luke@dashjr.org>
From: Pieter Wuille <bitcoin-dev@wuille.net>
Cc: Sjors Provoost <sjors@sprovoost.nl>, bitcoindev@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] Relax OP_RETURN standardness restrictions
Message-ID: <QMywWcEgJgWmiQzASR17Dt42oLGgG-t3bkf0vzGemDVNVnvVaD64eM34nOQHlBLv8nDmeBEyTXvBUkM2hZEfjwMTrzzoLl1_62MYPz8ZThs=@wuille.net>
In-Reply-To: <d18b4149-5523-44bd-8332-2b7962f4b674@dashjr.org>
References: <rhfyCHr4RfaEalbfGejVdolYCVWIyf84PT2062DQbs5-eU8BPYty5sGyvI3hKeRZQtVC7rn_ugjUWFnWCymz9e9Chbn7FjWJePllFhZRKYk=@protonmail.com> <03be4934-f0ff-4b58-880d-861d63a4f970@dashjr.org> <CEB83B34-6C5B-469E-9914-20940F27EEC0@sprovoost.nl> <d18b4149-5523-44bd-8332-2b7962f4b674@dashjr.org>
Feedback-ID: 19463299:user:proton
X-Pm-Message-ID: 75a100ef4acffeeee95ed247069544670f4c377f
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-Original-Sender: bitcoin-dev@wuille.net
X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass
header.i=@wuille.net header.s=protonmail2 header.b=YCHO0eBI; spf=pass
(google.com: domain of bitcoin-dev@wuille.net designates 109.224.244.20 as
permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=bitcoin-dev@wuille.net; dmarc=pass
(p=NONE sp=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=wuille.net
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com
List-ID: <bitcoindev.googlegroups.com>
X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512
List-Post: <https://groups.google.com/group/bitcoindev/post>, <mailto:bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>
List-Help: <https://groups.google.com/support/>, <mailto:bitcoindev+help@googlegroups.com>
List-Archive: <https://groups.google.com/group/bitcoindev
List-Subscribe: <https://groups.google.com/group/bitcoindev/subscribe>, <mailto:bitcoindev+subscribe@googlegroups.com>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:googlegroups-manage+786775582512+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com>,
<https://groups.google.com/group/bitcoindev/subscribe>
X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/)
On Saturday, April 26th, 2025 at 7:45 AM, Luke Dashjr <luke@dashjr.org> wro=
te:
> That's nonsense. They were and continue to be very effective, even with
> only a small amount of adoption. Further, mining centralization and
Standardness rules have definitely been effective in the past, if we go far=
enough back in time. But back then:
* There were far less financial incentives to bypass them. Standardness add=
s inconvenience to people developing infrastructure on top, which can nudge=
in another direction. But I don't see how million-dollar (or more) busines=
s incentives would be thwarted by the need to communicate with miners direc=
tly (see below). These incentives will only increase as the subsidy dwindle=
s.
* There was far more reason for rules of this kind; the network was small a=
nd far less valuable, and there were significant concerns about increased n=
ode operation cost with a quickly-growing blockchain. With blocks consisten=
tly full for most of the time for years now, even at times without so-calle=
d "spam", that concern just does not exist; nodes will be processing the sa=
me amount of transaction data anyway. I think I share Luke's feelings aroun=
d non-financially-relevant transactions on-chain, but given sufficient dema=
nd for block space anyway, there just is no need to discriminate.
> pools denying miners options has been the biggest barrier to that
> adoption. There is no significant financial impact either, that's just
> FUD; miners using the fixed and improved spam filters have in fact
> earned significantly more than miners using Core.
I am doubtful of this claim, and would like to see evidence of it.
> It would be a pain, but it is definitely viable. Thankfully, policy
> works just fine for spam filtration, and can be adapted much quicker.
Nobody is required to adopt policy, and I think you're burying your head in=
the sand if you believe even in a world with more decentralized hashpower,=
miners/hashers would voluntarily choose to disregard transactions that pay=
a significant fee, if the potential gains from accepting them exceed the c=
ost of building infrastructure to bypass whatever policy exists.
Bitcoin users do have a means to deny usage of the chain to truly damaging =
use: consensus changes. Those are not optional, apply to everyone equally, =
do not create incentives for bypass, and - and I believe that is a good thi=
ng - can only be adopted with very wide agreement.
> > b) centralisation
>=20
> No, this is more FUD.
The **entire** reason why Bitcoin uses PoW, as opposed to using a tradition=
al consensus system with a federation of block-builders, is to avoid censor=
ship. If anyone dislikes the choices current miners make in what transactio=
ns they accept, they can - without asking anyone for permission - join the =
set of miners, and earn a proportional piece of the pie. While it is the ca=
se that today mining power is quite concentrated in a number of businesses,=
the set of such businesses can, and has, changed over time. This is a very=
valuable property.
Part of the puzzle to make that permissionlessness of mining work is access=
to fee-paying transactions from the public. If sufficient economic demand =
exist for transactions that the public network denies, miners and creators =
of such transaction will develop transaction rails that bypass that network=
.
If it comes to a point where that economic demand is so high that miners ne=
ed to rely on private transaction rails to realistically compete, I feel we=
'd be giving up on one of the most valuable properties the network has. I r=
ealize this is a slipstreamery-slope argument, but it is already happening,=
and once the rails are ubiquitous, it will be very hard to go back to a pu=
blic network.
---
Because of all these reasons, Concept ACK on relaxing the OP_RETURN limits,=
including removing them entirely. I have been a strong proponent of these =
limits in the past, and I'm not happy with seeing the demand for those tran=
sactions. But I also recognize the reality that that demand exists, and the=
alternative of pushing that demand to bypass the public network is far mor=
e damaging.
I will add that I am not in favor of relaxing many other standardness rules=
in Bitcoin Core, such as transaction sizes and other resource limitations.=
These have significant impact on the public's ability to verify and relay =
transactions, and reason about incentive compatibility while doing so. Sign=
ificant and sustained economic demand for such transactions may at some poi=
nt too mean the policy needs to be revised to avoid an even worse outcome, =
but I'm hopeful that is not the case. However, these arguments do not apply=
to OP_RETURN limits, which don't serve an objective harm reduction beyond =
a subjective "that isn't what you should be using the chain for".
--=20
Pieter
--=20
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/=
QMywWcEgJgWmiQzASR17Dt42oLGgG-t3bkf0vzGemDVNVnvVaD64eM34nOQHlBLv8nDmeBEyTXv=
BUkM2hZEfjwMTrzzoLl1_62MYPz8ZThs%3D%40wuille.net.
|
