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From: Tao Effect <contact@taoeffect.com>
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To: Paul Sztorc <truthcoin@gmail.com>
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Cc: Bitcoin Dev <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Generalized sharding protocol for decentralized
 scaling without Miners owning our BTC
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Hi Paul,

I thought it was clear, but apparently you are getting stuck on the =
semantics of the word "burn".

The "burning" applies to the original coins you had.

When you transfer them back, you get newly minted coins, equivalent to =
the amount you "burned" on the chain you're transferring from =E2=80=94 =
as stated in the OP.

If you don't like the word "burn", pick another one.

--
Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also =
sharing with the NSA.

> On Oct 10, 2017, at 4:20 AM, Paul Sztorc <truthcoin@gmail.com =
<mailto:truthcoin@gmail.com>> wrote:
>=20
> Haha, no. Because you "burned" the coins.
>=20
> On Oct 10, 2017 1:20 AM, "Tao Effect" <contact@taoeffect.com =
<mailto:contact@taoeffect.com>> wrote:
> Paul,
>=20
> It's a two-way peg.
>=20
> There's nothing preventing transfers back to the main chain.
>=20
> They work in the exact same manner.
>=20
> Cheers,
> Greg
>=20
> --
> Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also =
sharing with the NSA.
>=20
>> On Oct 9, 2017, at 6:39 PM, Paul Sztorc <truthcoin@gmail.com =
<mailto:truthcoin@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>=20
>> That is only a one-way peg, not a two-way.
>>=20
>> In fact, that is exactly what drivechain does, if one chooses =
parameters for the drivechain that make it impossible for any =
side-to-main transfer to succeed.
>>=20
>> One-way pegs have strong first-mover disadvantages.
>>=20
>> Paul
>>=20
>> On Oct 9, 2017 9:24 PM, "Tao Effect via bitcoin-dev" =
<bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org =
<mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>> wrote:
>> Dear list,
>>=20
>> In previous arguments over Drivechain (and Drivechain-like proposals) =
I promised that better scaling proposals =E2=80=94 that do not sacrifice =
Bitcoin's security =E2=80=94 would come along.
>>=20
>> I planned to do a detailed writeup, but have decided to just send off =
this email with what I have, because I'm unlikely to have time to write =
up a detailed proposal.
>>=20
>> The idea is very simple (and by no means novel*), and I'm sure others =
have mentioned either exactly it, or similar ideas (e.g. burning coins) =
before.
>>=20
>> This is a generic sharding protocol for all blockchains, including =
Bitcoin.
>>=20
>> Users simply say: "My coins on Chain A are going to be sent to Chain =
B".
>>=20
>> Then they burn the coins on Chain A, and create a minting transaction =
on Chain B. The details of how to ensure that coins do not get lost =
needs to be worked out, but I'm fairly certain the folks on this list =
can figure out those details.
>>=20
>> - Thin clients, nodes, and miners, can all very easily verify that =
said action took place, and therefore accept the "newly minted" coins on =
B as valid.
>> - Users client software now also knows where to look for the other =
coins (if for some reason it needs to).
>>=20
>> This doesn't even need much modification to the Bitcoin protocol as =
most of the verification is done client-side.
>>=20
>> It is fully decentralized, and there's no need to give our ownership =
of our coins to miners to get scale.
>>=20
>> My sincere apologies if this has been brought up before (in which =
case, I would be very grateful for a link to the proposal).
>>=20
>> Cheers,
>> Greg Slepak
>>=20
>> * This idea is similar in spirit to Interledger.
>>=20
>> --
>> Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also =
sharing with the NSA.
>>=20
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> bitcoin-dev mailing list
>> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org =
<mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev =
<https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev>
>>=20
>>=20
>=20


--Apple-Mail=_EC9BDBB2-46D8-4DA2-BB88-BEB37219CC31
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">Hi Paul,</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I thought it was clear, but apparently =
you are getting stuck on the semantics of the word "burn".</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">The "burning" applies to =
the original coins you had.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div=
 class=3D"">When you transfer them back, you get newly minted coins, =
equivalent to the amount you "burned" on the chain you're transferring =
from =E2=80=94 as stated in the OP.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">If you don't like the word "burn", pick =
another one.</div><div class=3D"">
<span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-variant-ligatures: normal; =
font-variant-position: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; =
font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: 2; widows: 2;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">--</span><br style=3D"color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-position: normal; =
font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; =
font-variant-east-asian: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; =
widows: 2;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-position: normal; =
font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; =
font-variant-east-asian: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; =
widows: 2;" class=3D"">Please do not email me anything that you are not =
comfortable also sharing</span><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-position: normal; =
font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; =
font-variant-east-asian: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; =
widows: 2;" class=3D"">&nbsp;with the NSA.</span>
</div>
<br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Oct 10, 2017, at 4:20 AM, Paul Sztorc &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:truthcoin@gmail.com" class=3D"">truthcoin@gmail.com</a>&gt;=
 wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"auto" class=3D"">Haha, no. Because you "burned" the =
coins.</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br class=3D""><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote">On Oct 10, 2017 1:20 AM, "Tao Effect" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:contact@taoeffect.com" =
class=3D"">contact@taoeffect.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br type=3D"attribution" =
class=3D""><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 =
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div =
style=3D"word-wrap:break-word" class=3D"">Paul,<div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">It's a two-way peg.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">There's nothing =
preventing transfers back to the main chain.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">They work in the exact same =
manner.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Cheers,</div><div class=3D"">Greg<br class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; font-variant-ligatures: normal; =
font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; =
font-variant-east-asian: normal; line-height: normal;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D"m_8294306076325067848Apple-interchange-newline">--</span><br =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; font-variant-ligatures: normal; =
font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; =
font-variant-east-asian: normal; line-height: normal;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; font-variant-ligatures: normal; =
font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; =
font-variant-east-asian: normal; line-height: normal;" class=3D"">Please =
do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also =
sharing</span><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; =
font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; =
line-height: normal;" class=3D"">&nbsp;with the NSA.</span>
</div>
<br class=3D""><div class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Oct 9, 2017, at 6:39 PM, Paul Sztorc &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:truthcoin@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">truthcoin@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"m_8294306076325067848Apple-interchange-newline"><div =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"auto" class=3D""><div class=3D"">That is only a =
one-way peg, not a two-way.</div><div dir=3D"auto" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div dir=3D"auto" class=3D"">In fact, that is exactly =
what drivechain does, if one chooses parameters for the drivechain that =
make it impossible for any side-to-main transfer to succeed.</div><div =
dir=3D"auto" class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div dir=3D"auto" =
class=3D"">One-way pegs have strong first-mover disadvantages.</div><div =
dir=3D"auto" class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div dir=3D"auto" =
class=3D"">Paul<br class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_extra" dir=3D"auto"><br =
class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Oct 9, 2017 9:24 PM, "Tao =
Effect via bitcoin-dev" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">bitcoin-dev@lists.<wbr class=3D"">linuxfoundation.org</a>&gt; =
wrote:<br type=3D"attribution" class=3D""><blockquote =
class=3D"m_8294306076325067848quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 =
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div =
style=3D"word-wrap:break-word" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"word-wrap:break-word" class=3D"">Dear list,<div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">In previous arguments over Drivechain =
(and Drivechain-like proposals) I promised that better scaling proposals =
=E2=80=94 that do not sacrifice Bitcoin's security =E2=80=94 would come =
along.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I =
planned to do a detailed writeup, but have decided to just send off this =
email with what I have, because I'm unlikely to have time to write up a =
detailed proposal.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">The idea is very simple (and by no means novel*), and I'm =
sure others have mentioned either exactly it, or similar ideas (e.g. =
burning coins) before.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">This is a generic sharding protocol for all blockchains, =
including Bitcoin.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Users simply say: "My coins on Chain A are going to be sent =
to Chain B".</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Then they burn the coins on Chain A, and create a minting =
transaction on Chain B. The details of how to ensure that coins do not =
get lost needs to be worked out, but I'm fairly certain the folks on =
this list can figure out those details.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">- Thin clients, nodes, and miners, can =
all very easily verify that said action took place, and therefore accept =
the "newly minted" coins on B as valid.</div><div class=3D"">- Users =
client software now also knows where to look for the other coins (if for =
some reason it needs to).</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">This doesn't even need much modification to the Bitcoin =
protocol as most of the verification is done client-side.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">It is fully =
decentralized, and there's no need to give our ownership of our coins to =
miners to get scale.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">My sincere apologies if this has been brought up before (in =
which case, I would be very grateful for a link to the =
proposal).</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Cheers,</div><div class=3D"">Greg Slepak</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">* This idea is similar =
in spirit to Interledger.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-varia=
nt-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;t=
ext-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;fon=
t-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-altern=
ates:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;line-height:normal" =
class=3D"">--</span><br =
style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-varia=
nt-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;t=
ext-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;fon=
t-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-altern=
ates:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;line-height:normal" =
class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-varia=
nt-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;t=
ext-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;fon=
t-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-altern=
ates:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;line-height:normal" =
class=3D"">Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable =
also sharing</span><span =
style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-varia=
nt-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;t=
ext-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;fon=
t-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-altern=
ates:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;line-height:normal" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;with the NSA.</span>
</div>

<br class=3D""></div></div></div></div><br =
class=3D"">______________________________<wbr =
class=3D"">_________________<br class=3D"">
bitcoin-dev mailing list<br class=3D"">
<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank"=
 class=3D"">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundat<wbr class=3D"">ion.org</a><br =
class=3D"">
<a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev"=
 rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">https://lists.linuxfoundation.<wbr =
class=3D"">org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-d<wbr class=3D"">ev</a><br =
class=3D"">
<br class=3D""></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div></div></div>
</div></blockquote></div><br =
class=3D""></div></div></blockquote></div></div>
</div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></body></html>=

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